Transport Tycoon Forums

I know that this has been discussed already, but I cannot find a definitive answer to this question (please, don't just tell me 'search for it', I already did).

I was just confused as to why trams are not enable-able by default. All other vehicle types have default sets, but trams must be downloaded. This must be incredibly confusing for new players, who will see that trams are possible, but never available.

My suggestion (as I remember seeing before) is to (re-?)include the Generic Tram Set (most likely) in the game by default.

EDIT: title changed to be more general

Level Crossing wrote:My suggestion (as I remember seeing before) is to (re-?)include the Generic Tram Set (most likely) in the game by default.

It was never included. With 0.6 (or was it 0.7?) the generic tram set was bundled together with the binary, but users still had to enable it in the newgrf settings. Now that it's very easy to download newgrfs from the online content system there is no reason to give this one a special treatment.

The reason the generic tram set is not shipped with the game any more is because one now easily can get a tram set of choice from the content download. And the reason that there are no default trams is because there were no trams in TTD; including them in the base set is not possible, as one cannot define new things in a base set.

IMO, seeing the tram option greyed out should be enough incentive for people to try and figure out why these are not available. Either by RTFMing or by asking. Given the low amount of "why can't I build trams" questions here I think most people are able to figure it out for themselves.

Re-including the generic tram set is not the solution IMO, as that still needs to be activated via the NewGRF settings (like Yexo said). If default trams are to be included, I think they should be available like the other default vehicles, without the need to activate them. If and how this should be done is worth discussing I think.

FooBar wrote:If default trams are to be included, I think they should be available like the other default vehicles, without the need to activate them. If and how this should be done is worth discussing I think.

That's closer to what I had in mind - maybe include it in the next openGFX release (OGFX contains the vehicle graphics, right)?

Level Crossing wrote:

FooBar wrote:If default trams are to be included, I think they should be available like the other default vehicles, without the need to activate them. If and how this should be done is worth discussing I think.

That's closer to what I had in mind - maybe include it in the next openGFX release (OGFX contains the vehicle graphics, right)?

Vehicles are more than just graphics. If trams were included in OpenGFX they'd also have to be included in the extra grf for the original TTD graphics. In multiplayer you'd then have desyncs as soon as someone has an older version of OpenGFX. There would be no way to disable those trams again.

Enough reasons not to do it?

Yexo wrote:Vehicles are more than just graphics.

So support could be added for them in OTTD. This wouldn't cause desyncs because multiplayer requires everyone to have the same version of OTTD.

Yexo wrote:If trams were included in OpenGFX they'd also have to be included in the extra grf for the original TTD graphics.

Is that too difficult to do? Or am I missing something?

Yexo wrote:In multiplayer you'd then have desyncs as soon as someone has an older version of OpenGFX. There would be no way to disable those trams again.

The servers could require a minimum version of OGFX. All a user would have to do is upgrade OGFX.

FooBar wrote:If default trams are to be included, I think they should be available like the other default vehicles, without the need to activate them. If and how this should be done is worth discussing I think.

I'm supporting this idea and wondering why it hasn't been done in the first place? Trams is the only transport sub-type not included by default.
A new player may never know that trams are available. Also think about offline gamers.
How it should be done? Perhaps in the same way like other vehicles.

adf88 wrote:How it should be done? Perhaps in the same way like other vehicles.

The only way I see that it could work is to hardcode the trams into the game, where the base sets only provide the graphics via Action 5 (possibly a new type). That way there's no desync issues and OpenTTD will warn for missing graphics in case of an old base graphics set.

In my view that should be a feasible solution. Four passenger trams should be enough, with properties similar to the buses (I'd give them somewhat higher purchase cost, lower running cost and slightly higher capacity, with the same introduction dates as the buses). The graphics can probably be borrowed from the generic tram set, as those are very close to the default TTD buses.
If someone wants more trams or cargo trams he or she should load a NewGRF.

What about vehicle sets that replace all vehicles? They would (magically) not replace these vehicles anymore.

Then they can be adjusted.

Rubidium wrote:What about vehicle sets that replace all vehicles? They would (magically) not replace these vehicles anymore.

If such set doesn't contain trams, then I think one would actually want to keep the trams.

And in the worst case there's a couple of tram entries that players can just ignore, not too big of a deal IMO.

This seems like a very hypothetical problem: Level Crossing says "This must be incredibly confusing for new players", but where are the actual new players who are asking this question? And fixing this perceived problem by introducing another one (i.e. what Rubidium says) is not a good idea IMO. Personally I prefer to replace the default vehicles with one or more sets, and as someone who doesn't use the Generic Tram Set I'd rather not be stuck with those vehicles if they can't be disabled.

If we were to have a set of default trams, then why not a default AI, or earlier vehicles, or any number of things which might be nice but are easily obtained by a simple download?

PaulC wrote:This seems like a very hypothetical problem: Level Crossing says "This must be incredibly confusing for new players", but where are the actual new players who are asking this question?

Many of them might not find this forum and merely give up on the game. And those who find the forum will likely have discovered newGRF downloading first, so they will not complain here.

PaulC wrote:And fixing this perceived problem by introducing another one (i.e. what Rubidium says) is not a good idea IMO.

To be honest, it's surprising and rather strange that the newGRFs are so hardcoded that they cannot automatically replace all vehicles of a certain type.

As a last resort, since they weren't part of TTD, they could be enable-able via an advanced setting, with the default set to on.

PaulC wrote:If we were to have a set of default trams, then why not a default AI, or earlier vehicles, or any number of things which might be nice but are easily obtained by a simple download?

That argument can be extended to its logical limit:

Why have any default vehicles? A user can always download some off the online content.

Level Crossing wrote:Why have any default vehicles?

Because they are part of the original game (TTDP)? Trams, on the other hand, are not.

Many of them might not find this forum and merely give up on the game. And those who find the forum will likely have discovered newGRF downloading first, so they will not complain here.

Again, that's entirely hypothetical. Do you know that this is the case, and to such an extent that something needs to be done? Trams are nice, but they are in no way integral to the game.

Level Crossing wrote:Why have any default vehicles? A user can always download some off the online content.

Because the default vehicles we already have are defined in the newgrf specs. NewGRFs rely on those values being there, so we can't remove them. Not being able to remove old hardcoded data is not a reason to add more.

PaulC wrote:

Level Crossing wrote:Why have any default vehicles?

Because they are part of the original game (TTDP)? Trams, on the other hand, are not.

AIs are as well, but there is no default AI in OTTD...

And the fact that they were not in TTD is another reason to make them an option at the least. After all, OTTD is supposed to expand upon TTD, not be stuck in the 1995 past.

PaulC wrote:

Many of them might not find this forum and merely give up on the game. And those who find the forum will likely have discovered newGRF downloading first, so they will not complain here.

Again, that's entirely hypothetical. Do you know that this is the case, and to such an extent that something needs to be done?

I know that the above was true for me.

PaulC wrote:Trams are nice, but they are in no way integral to the game.

That's not a real argument. The same can be said for almost anything.

Level Crossing wrote:That's not a real argument. The same can be said for almost anything.

Really? People were playing this game just fine long before trams became a possibility, and it's possible to play a full and satisfying game without them even today. Besides, we're not talking about how useful other things may or may not be.

I know that the above was true for me.

Clearly you didn't give up on the game (which would be a bit extreme, yes?) so you must have figured out how to download a tram set. Problem solved then.

And the fact that they were not in TTD is another reason to make them an option at the least. After all, OTTD is supposed to expand upon TTD, not be stuck in the 1995 past.

They already are an option, and we're hardly stuck in 1995...

It would be nice if a set of default trams could be added without causing other problems, but I count two devs in this discussion who are saying that that's not possible. If that changes then great, but otherwise I think you're overstating this issue when the solution is only a download away.

To sum up, the issue appears to be entirely GRF compatibility, no?

My (general plan of a) solution would be:
Include trams in base set and in the game (well, that's the point of this thread)
Make them dis/enable-able in an advanced setting (that would take care of the vehicle sets don't replace all vehicles)

So the only issue would be with the not-adding-any-more-hardcoded-data. There has to be a solution...just not sure what. Anyone have any ideas?

i'm sorry, maybe i'm stupid, but in how far do you think "add an advanced setting" is a better solution than "add a newgrf"?

Well... I've no idea yet how to achieve that exactly and whether it's a good idea might need discussion, too.

But the goal basically is: provide a richer game experience when getting a fresh install of OpenTTD while keeping all NewGRF compatibility. Possible steps could include:

- Provide a set of NewGRFs, like Trains, Road Vehicles, Ships, Planes, NewObjects, Airports, Industries, Stations and Houses which extend carefully the existing features but without changing the game (like offering additional refits for vehicles, maybe a few earlier ones, too, rotations for airports, better terrain awareness for industries and houses, some cargo awareness for stations and similar).

- Modify the NewGRF setup such that there is "base list" of NewGRFs which are always active. Unless another NewGRF is activated which provides the same feature as one of these "base NewGRFs". E.g. the trains from the "base NewGRFs" de-activate when another trainset is loaded (thus the trainset sees the base set as is now and can modify the TTD trains as it can now). Similar with e.g. an industry set: the "base Industry NewGRF" might provide more layouts for e.g. power plant and saw mill - but all this will be gone automatically to the state of the default industries when the player selects another industry NewGRF. The result will then be what it is now when loading that industry newgrf. And of course the player needs the choice to explicitly disable these "base NewGRFs", too in order to get the state as we see the game now when we got the vanilla game onto a new computer.

Steps to this might include
- GUI for static NewGRF selection
- expose the feature detection for NewGRFs and integration of that into the GUI
- ...