Transport Tycoon Forums

Well, firstly I want to thank you for great work you're doing; I played TTD since I was a kid and when you made OpenTTD, it brought me back to playing.
Then, when I played for some time I made great railroad networks, which when overloaded, got stuck. So I started to make better junctions and stations and that's when problems began: one double four-way junction took over 10 years in-game to design, build and test - I just got briefly inspired by junctions designs on wiki, didn't copy. Still, it's little bit too much. So I searched through google and this forum and foud some solutions for Copy/Pasting (Copy&paste patch, Reworked version and Clipboard which seems the only one alive). I won't lie, I didnt read each and every reply, but I figured where the biggest problem is: it never got official support, never really got into source code.
The reason for that is mostly because of protection of other players designs. Well, I agree, nothing's more frustrating than spending two hours on a design and twenty seconds later finding the same design all over the map.
So player will get frustrated either way: either he will have to spend most of the time building huge junctions over and over again (and after fours of gameplay he finds that little, but critical weakness that he used in all other instances) or he gets his ideas stolen. Or, he uses only simple one-rail-one-train railroads and makes great working systems, which resemble mostly chaos and tangled rails.
So i sat down and thought, how to make this powerful and time-saving tool and still protect other players ideas (at least partially - ever heard of screenshot?). One thing came into my mind, thet already have been used in a tycoon game before. Who plays or played RollerCoaster Tycoon will know special type of map, where he didn't have any cash restrictions and could build and then save any rollercoaster design he wanted.
Why not to make somethig like that in OpenTTD? Just a rough idea:

-No money restrictions, just calculate cost estimate when saving the template. When "pasting" to the scenario, re-calculate accordig to difficulty setting and add demolition cost for the entire area (just an estimate).
-Toggle universal rail - if the rail he designed should be converted to currently active type or not (if you want to use more than one type in one template)
-Set of benchmarking tools (depots, that would spawn (and de-spawn) trains of given (or random, min/max) lenght, vehicles etc.
-fake industry - to get dimentions and benchmark loading in stations
-tool to select which part of area should be saved

This whole feature should be isolated from Single/Multiplayer, meaning that you could only create templates when not in actual game (let's say you're project architect in that mode). Also, it qould be great if you could to save those templates in hiearachic tree (like files in folders); this also could be the solution to save those templates - save them as special type of map (in templates folder for example), with tiles toggled as not used (benchamrk depots, industry, tiles outside the template area etc.).

When you think about it, this would save players hours of dull work of repeating their ideas (yes, dull work when you are playing... that really seems weird), allowing players to test new theories much faster, thus being more creative.

It's been a while since I used english actively, so excuse please any bad grammar and non-existing words, i hope you'll understand the main idea.

The biggest problem with copy/paste patches is that they never were in a state where the developer of said patch did think it was finished or were unmaintainable due to the massive amounts of copied code.

So you would implement it in OpenTTD's patches once the code was ready up to a stabled version and proven bug-free (or at least nearly)?

Agahnim_Demaend wrote:This whole feature should be isolated from Single/Multiplayer, meaning that you could only create templates when not in actual game (let's say you're project architect in that mode).

Why? During gameplay is actually where complicated things that benefit from this are invented. This is what I use in RCT2. I never used the track designer.

One of the biggest problems of a patch is the question what it really does (as well as what it does not do) and how it performs its function. A concrete patch, ready for inclusion, reduces that problem to a single case. That unifies views, and makes such discussions possible upto and including yes/no.

Until that point, to say yes/no beforehand, you'd need to write a complete spec, which is likely to be more work than just write the code.


For what it is worth at this moment, in my personal view the biggest problem of the C&P patch is the save/load functionality. It enables people to copy/paste designs of others without any effort or understanding of those designs, which I think, ruins game play.
(that is, theoretically, one could paste a winning design of the whole world in about 2 seconds, and be done with the game.)

FooBar wrote:Why? During gameplay is actually where complicated things that benefit from this are invented. This is what I use in RCT2. I never used the track designer.

True, you discover lots of thing during gameplay, but you don't always have funds to test it fully. Also, in "project mode" you don't have to worry about second railway that runs nearby and could be saved along the way. In RCT (1,2,3) rollercoasters are closed objects (you cannot join two coasters), but in TTD it's sure you will and you'll need to separate one junction from other.

Alberth wrote:One of the biggest problems of a patch is the question what it really does (as well as what it does not do) and how it performs its function. A concrete patch, ready for inclusion, reduces that problem to a single case. That unifies views, and makes such discussions possible upto and including yes/no.

Until that point, to say yes/no beforehand, you'd need to write a complete spec, which is likely to be more work than just write the code.

Well, I'd love to program it myself, but (aside from the lack of time) I think I don't have thst much experience with C.

Alberth wrote:For what it is worth at this moment, in my personal view the biggest problem of the C&P patch is the save/load functionality. It enables people to copy/paste designs of others without any effort or understanding of those designs, which I think, ruins game play.
(that is, theoretically, one could paste a winning design of the whole world in about 2 seconds, and be done with the game.)

That's exactly what you can't do. You cannot copy any design in-game. You create templates in a separate mode ("project mode") which is outside normal gameplay.
And if one player copies just files in which those templates are stored, then he ruins the game for himself. It's just the same if somebody makes a junction based on a screenshot, only faster. It's a tool, that could really help players to be creative; but as any other tool it can be used in a bad way. Dont drive a car, you can get anywhere faster, but you can kill a lot of people if you use it in a bad way.

Agahnim_Demaend wrote:True, you discover lots of thing during gameplay, but you don't always have funds to test it fully. Also, in "project mode" you don't have to worry about second railway that runs nearby and could be saved along the way. In RCT (1,2,3) rollercoasters are closed objects (you cannot join two coasters), but in TTD it's sure you will and you'll need to separate one junction from other.

Well, I'm not against a separate template designer. I just think it should also be included in normal gameplay (if it gets included, that is). What should go into a template and what should not is to be selected by the user, similar to how you could select scenery to be included with a rollercoaster design in RCT2.

I just wanna point out the obvious... If it can be seen it can be copied!
If you spent 2+ hours making the perfect junction* and someone sees it they will copy it, patch or no patch.

Personally i don't mind it if someone takes my work and makes something useful of it... It's not like it's a real life income playing OTTD.

* - Is there even such a thing as the perfect junction? Over the years i have spent more than 100 hours just designing new junctions and every time i mostly come to the conclusion that one junction that works in one place doesn't work in another. You set goals for your network like min speed, max inclines per x tiles, min signal distance, capacity, space between one way tracks and so forth. In many places the perfect junction A won't fit due to there being a town or industry or other infrastructure in the way. Or it's going to leave you with other issues such as trains having to take detours just because you want to use a specific junction that only fits in one place.
I think that eventually, players will come to the same conclusion: Junctions are not always Copy->Paste material and building manually is the way to go.

So is there really a need for a Copy->Paste patch? ABSOLUTELY!

There are many simpler designs (like station entrances, parts of junctions, town 3x3 road grids etc) that isn't going to improve much more than they already have. Building those parts of the network over and over again is tedious and not fun after having done it for the fiftyeleventh time.
And that is exactly what i use Copy and Paste for. I copy elements i have already built once that i know will work in my current network set up.
Then of course i have a few junction designs saved just in case i CBA to make a proper man made junction. It is my loss because i would benefit from making it custom (shortest path to the mainline) rather than sticking to a set design that won't allow that.

In the end, people are going to copy designs one way or another and if they really wanted too they could use an external program for this very purpose. (like a cheat basically but who want's to cheat in OTTD?)
Having templates doesn't automatically give you copy protection. As long as the data is sent to the client it can be copied. The only way to prevent "theft" (copying isn't theft <music>) is to not show your design to anyone. There are three ways this can be accomplished:

1. Play single player exclusively. (There is pretty much zero chance of your design being "stolen" if nobody sees it)
2. Play multiplayer but don't use your "award winning" designs there.
3. Playing multiplayer but having some kind of Fog of War™ over any corporations infrastructure that doesn't belong to your corporation. (Pretty much every tile owned by another corporation is greyed out and it's contents (apart from grass) isn't sent over the network. You cannot copy what you cannot see)

Three is the best solution that doesn't put you in singleplayer or out of using your design. But how fun is it to play against others if you cannot see what they are doing? Isn't there a better way???

... You might say at this point that whatever copy/paste patch OTTD uses. Other corporations designs can be protected by copy protection. You are only allowed to copy infrastructure that belongs to you. Like already exists in the copy/paste patch i am using but only for town owned roads.
But with such a solution we are back at square 1 because if it can be seen it can be copied. if not by the copy/paste tool itself, then by visual copying tile by tile or by simply saving the map and loading it in SP and make a "hostile takeover" of the corporation where you can then copy the design.

Point is, trying to protect your virtual property is more work than realizing that sharing is caring. If you don't care about your design being "stolen" then all of the above problems are solved.
And in fact, if you can take pride in sharing with others... "I made this and someone benefited from it. This makes me happy!"... Then none of the above really matters.
But people are different in so many ways and i can understand their reasoning in a competitive multiplayer game. But in the end, any junction template you make isn't going to be a match for making custom made junctions that fit perfectly with the network layout at that particular leg of the network.
And that my friends... Isn't something any copy/paste patch will ever be able to do. (Only a "build everything for me" patch can do that...)

Just my 2 cents.


P.S.
I really think copy/paste should make it into trunk. Once you've had it you never want to be without. Even if you don't want to share your Nobel Prize winning "junction of world peace".

Cadde wrote:"I made this and someone benefited from it. This makes me happy!"

I've met egoists in too many games, so believe me, at least some protection (like having to build the entire junction using only screenshot) will prevent those (anus)holes to get on your nerves using yet another way (like use your design and take credit for creating it). But otherwise, why not?
I used the idea of "project mode" to protect player's creations (at least for a little while) and also to include the benchmark or testing enviroment - just to allw player to hurl as many trains at the junction as the game allows without the need of creating tem (also random length trains would take a while to make) to test it to the max.
Templating simple junctions (like roundabouts etc.) will save you so much time... the big junctions... well, there will be need of it in any game, and if you create more types of them you'll be able to use them almost anytime. Depends how much cities and industry you play with.

Agahnim_Demaend wrote:

Cadde wrote:"I made this and someone benefited from it. This makes me happy!"

I've met egoists in too many games, so believe me, at least some protection (like having to build the entire junction using only screenshot) will prevent those (anus)holes to get on your nerves using yet another way (like use your design and take credit for creating it). But otherwise, why not?
I used the idea of "project mode" to protect player's creations (at least for a little while) and also to include the benchmark or testing enviroment - just to allw player to hurl as many trains at the junction as the game allows without the need of creating tem (also random length trains would take a while to make) to test it to the max.
Templating simple junctions (like roundabouts etc.) will save you so much time... the big junctions... well, there will be need of it in any game, and if you create more types of them you'll be able to use them almost anytime. Depends how much cities and industry you play with.

Like i said, i don't care if they take it and call it their own. It's their mental damage, not mine.
Still, any kind of protection isn't going to stop people from taking your stuff. In fact it encourages more people to break that protection in any way they possibly could. This is a bad thing as it leads to more protection which leads to more methods of breaking it. It's an endless circle of pain.
While on the other end of the scale, simply not caring, means nobody needs to do anything to fix it.

Intellectual property suffers from this all the time. Especially if you try to make a living out of it.
For example, a game with the most sophisticated copy protection is in fact going to be more desirable to crack than a game with very little copy protection. People take it as a challenge to break stuff.
It's like attaching a sticker that reads "Unbreakable" to a safe. People will just try harder until it finally breaks.
But if you instead put your money in "mr fluffy bunny" people will never know it's there (unless they know there is something for the taking) and thus never take it.

And like i said... No junction design, no matter how sophisticated, is ever going to be applicable in more than a few places if you are looking for maximum network efficiency.
If you want to have all designs readily available you will spend more time perfecting them than actually playing the game.
Sure OTTD is a sandbox and you are free to do as you please but isn't the underlying goal of the game to transport stuff and earn money rather than building the perfect "works everywhere" junction?