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From http://railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011 ... reate.html

Siemens Thameslink deal 'will create 2000 jobs'



SIEMENS has won a contract worth some £1.5 billion to build the new Thameslink fleet, after fending off competitor Bombardier to be named as preferred bidder. Siemens said the project would create up to 2,000 jobs in the supply chain.

The Derby and Derbyshire Rail Forum is shrugging off the loss of the business to Derby-based Bombardier, saying that the Derby rail sector would 'remain very much in business'. Bombardier itself has yet to comment.

Rail minister Theresa Villiers said: "The announcement of Siemens as preferred bidder for this contract represents the best value for money for taxpayers. It will create around 2,000 new jobs and will provide Thameslink passengers with modern, greener and more reliable trains.

"The new trains are a major part of the Government’s commitment to introduce an additional 2,100 carriages on to the rail network by 2019. Once the new trains are delivered, current Thameslink rolling stock becomes available to improve rail services in the North West of England, the Thames Valley and other areas yet to be confirmed."

There had been high hopes that the contract, involving up to 1,200 new vehicles, would be awarded to Bombardier. But the decision to choose a preferred bidder had been deferred several times by the Department for Transport, with the two shortlisted contenders making their best and final bids in January this year.

Siemens managing director for rolling stock in the UK, Steve Scrimshaw, said he was delighted. He added: "Our selection is a significant achievement, not only for the rolling stock teams both in the UK and Germany but for Siemens overall."

In a statement, the company added that the selection had been made on strict evaluation criteria, with focus on deliverability, affordability and value for money. Although some of the components are set to be made in Britain, the trains themselves will be built in Germany.

The fleet will be the first production run of Siemens' new Desiro City units (model, pictured), which have been developed for the British market.

Siemens is in partnership with Cross London Trains, a consortium of Siemens Project Ventures, Innisfree and 3i Infrastructure. The name is not without significance: the next major rolling stock contract in Britain will be for the Crossrail fleet, and some industry observers have already suggested that the winner of the Thameslink contract is likely to be favourite to build the Crossrail trains in due course as well.

ENDS

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From: http://railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011 ... sence.html

Bombardier may review British presence after defeat



BOMBARDIER is reported to be set to review its activities in Britain, after losing a £1.5 billion train order to Siemens.

More than three thousand jobs now hang in the balance, while Bombardier seeks a 'debriefing' from the DfT on why it lost the order for some 1,200 new vehicles for Thameslink.

The order, for which Siemens is now the Department for Transport’s preferred bidder, is to build approximately 300 4-car units to replace and enlarge the present Thameslink fleet. Some of these units would run in 12-car formations, and platforms have already been lengthened accordingly at many stations on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes in recent years.

Assuming that the contract is confirmed later this year, the first of the new trains – built in Germany – are due to be delivered in 2015.

The British supply chain will make some contribution, with up to 300 jobs expected to be created at Hebburn in Tyneside to make components for the new fleet, which Siemens has dubbed 'Desiro City'.

Siemens said that in all 2,000 jobs could be created in Britain as a result of the order, but as there are now fears for the future of the Bombardier train-building works at Derby, more than twice this number could be lost in the East Midlands alone.

Around 2,300 permanent staff are employed by Bombardier at Litchurch Lane in Derby, with another 700 currently on short-term agency contracts.

Several thousand more people are employed by companies in the local supply chain in and around the city, some of whom depend on the existence of Bombardier.

Ironically, the Bombardier works at Litchurch Lane are very busy at the moment, completing a number of orders which include 191 'S-stock' cars for the subsurface lines of London Underground.

The last of these are to be delivered in 2014, but other contracts will be completed within a year or less, leaving the plant to run down unless new orders can be found.

Bombardier has also scored a success this week, winning its largest ever resignalling contract for the London Underground Metropolitan Line and the other subsurface routes, but this work will not help Litchurch Lane to survive.

A spokesman for Bombardier would say only that the company was 'very disappointed' to have lost the Thameslink order, and that it would be seeking a debriefing from the Department for Transport, which allowed its decision to emerge early yesterday.

The transport secretary Philip Hammond had made what should have been a keynote speech at the industry exhibition Railtex just 24 hours earlier, but observers noted that he was careful to avoid the issue of the Thameslink contract.

The longer-term future of Litchurch Lane, and indeed Bombardier in Britain, must now be in doubt, but the company would not be drawn on what might happen next, insisting that no decisions had yet been made.

ENDS

That's interesting to hear. I wasn't aware that there was a Themelink contract going as well as Crossrail.

Bit strange that we're going to an over-seas firm to build trains rather than something like Bombardier which has a UK based factory. Not surprised they are disappointed by the decision.
If Siemens build this like the Desiro's, I bloody hope they have them so the doors don't stay locked 30 seconds after the train stops! I've found that to be quite irritating especially in comparison to FCC trains where their doors open pretty much the second the train stops in the platform.

Hmm, pretty mixed opinions after reading around.

Driver only operation tends to allow doors to open faster as the guard doesn't have to fight his way down the train to open the doors.

I wonder when they were finding the best value for taxpayers, they took into account the tax revenues that building by Bomardier would provide?

"Once the new trains are delivered, current Thameslink rolling stock becomes available to improve rail services in the North West of England, the Thames Valley and other areas yet to be confirmed."

A load of 20 year old class 319s for the peasants in the North? Gee, thanks! Give us some new bloody DMUs.

The thing is that in the end, we need the best product for the cheapest amount of money. Of course, the fact that Bombardier would have built the stock in Britain would have been a huge factor, but the Siemens bid must have been far more competitive. Plus the fact that these trains will be running for a good 20-30 years and we don't want another bunch of crap British stock like the Class 180s and 458s. I'm sure in the end, if they'd bought German stock instead, we'd have much better trains running round on those routes (although the 458 seats are super-comfy).

Plus I'm sure Derby will get enough work in due course. After all, they don't just build British Trains - anyone know if they're all finished with the South African Electrostars, of which the first batch at least were built entirely in Derby.

Of course I'm not involved in the railway industry so I wouldn't know exactly but I get the feeling that the 350/450 series are a bit more sturdy than the 377 and related series.

JamieLei wrote: we don't want another bunch of crap British stock like the Class 180s and 458s. I'm sure in the end, if they'd bought German stock instead,

The fact those to suck is not due to washwood heath being crap but because Alstom cut a lot of corners. Proof of this is that the Pendolino fleet was built at Washwood Heath and is one of the most reliable trains in the UK and as a fleet recently racked up 100million miles. The 458s are actually the second most reliable train in the SWT after the Desiros, although it did take a long time to achieve it and you still can't couple & uncouple in service.

I suppose. Of course I wasn't implying that Bombardier were crap either - according to the presentation given by the MD of CrossCountry trains that I attended, the company loves the Turbos and hates the Voyagers, both of which are British-built. But in the end it's down to a train by train basis and if a particular German-built train is significantly better than a British-built one, there shouldn't be any reason why we shouldn't use them.

I remember when the first Javelins were delivered and many people called them crap simply for the reason that they don't have "plug doors" like the normal trains we see around here. Despite the fact that Japan doesn't use them on domestically-built stock (even Shinkansen) and gets on just fine. (The A-stock door-within-window type is very common here on commuter trains). Sometimes a little foreign innovation can be good.

The responses to this thread are 100% predictable. I don't see what's wrong with sending the order to the bidder that was judged to give the best value. Its not as if Bombardier's profits stay in the UK anyway. Preferring UK producers for employment reasons hasn't really been a very successful policy in the past, look at the poor reliability of many of the old BR diesels for an example.

I'm sure Bombardier will get more orders in due course anyway.

Didn't they get awarded the Stansted Express order last year? Now that IEP is on hold (or is it off hold again?), Bombardier are probably going to come out better than than whoever won it since they actually have trains to build (I forgot).

JamieLei wrote:I'm sure Bombardier will get more orders in due course anyway.

Didn't they get awarded the Stansted Express order last year?

Which is complete, the 172 production is underway and will be complete by the end of 2012 as will the Underground stock. Nothing else in the pipeline.

JamieLei wrote:according to the presentation given by the MD of CrossCountry trains that I attended, the company loves the Turbos and hates the Voyagers, both of which are British-built...

170s were built at Derby, Voyagers were built by Bombardier in Belgium and completed/commissioned at Crofton near Wakefield.

Comparing existing Siemens/Bombardier stock won't give a true picture of what the competition for this contract was like, I'm pretty sure i'm in the minority when I say that if I'm travelling on TPE, I'm hoping for a 170 rather than a 185- the seats are comfier, more chance of lining up with a window, the trains just feel more solid- 185 seats are rock-hard and seem a little flimsy. (that is, if you're lucky enough to GET a seat on either)...

Thus far unsubstantiated rumours suggest that the Welsh Assembly government is to apply for EU funding to replace pacers and boost capacity, rather than deal with an unco-operative Westminster government- If such a thing happens, the 172 would be the most obvious 'Off-the-shelf' candidate- So I think Derby works will remain open at least- I'm sure even this arrogant Tory (let's face it, that's what it is) government would want to avoid the fallout if Bombardier was to pull out of the UK.

audigex wrote:"Once the new trains are delivered, current Thameslink rolling stock becomes available to improve rail services in the North West of England, the Thames Valley and other areas yet to be confirmed."

A load of 20 year old class 319s for the peasants in the North? Gee, thanks! Give us some new bloody DMUs.

It would be too much for the North to get the new trains! It would break the universe!

To be fair, the North got shiny new 185s a while ago, whereas the south (with the exception of the 171s) are still operating 158s and 165s

Anyone know where the 150s will go once they've been displaced out of the Midlands? I thought possibly Bristol and the Valleys but sure.

I'd rather have a 165 over any Pacer.

172s are too expensive to run for pacer routes surely. Like I've always said, we need a lightweight, economic 'New Pacer' that people are going to want to travel on. Maybe Bombardier should think about that...

God help us if we end up with Parry People Movers on the West Highland Line...

JamieLei wrote:God help us if we end up with Parry People Movers on the West Highland Line...

PPMs are useless for anything other than low speed independent lines. They've got the crashworthiness of a lump of butter and can't go faster than 40mph...

Provided 319s get a decent overhaul there's no reason to assume they wouldn't be a very good train for oop nurth.

As for where the 150s are going, they're off to FGW, that'll displace the 8 142s on loan from Northern as well as increasing their fleet size, the remainder are going to Northern, 180s return to leasor and will then probably go back to being with FGW.

JamieLei wrote:To be fair, the North got shiny new 185s a while ago, whereas the south (with the exception of the 171s) are still operating 158s and 165s

The 185s are nice and shiny and do indeed run to where I live... but they amount to less than 1/4 of trains: the other 3/4 are still 153/156/143s... 47434 can complain all you want about a 185's seats being hard, but they're nothing compared to sitting on a bench seat on a 143 as it hunts its way along, bouncing like a toy and revving loud enough that it overpowers my iPod. And there are few things on the railways more uncomfortable than knowing that you're pulling onto the WCML in the citroen saxo of trains.

156 are survivable most of the time, but they're noisy, the heating packs up regularly and they need some TLC. 153s are the same apart from the fact the seats are about a foot lower so are more uncomfortable.

Either way it's academic: 319s aren't going to be replacing the crap DMUs on most routes anytime soon due to the minor technicality of them being OHLE not diesel.

audigex wrote:

JamieLei wrote:To be fair, the North got shiny new 185s a while ago, whereas the south (with the exception of the 171s) are still operating 158s and 165s

The 185s are nice and shiny and do indeed run to where I live... but they amount to less than 1/4 of trains: the other 3/4 are still 153/156/143s... 47434 can complain all you want about a 185's seats being hard, but they're nothing compared to sitting on a bench seat on a 143 as it hunts its way along, bouncing like a toy and revving loud enough that it overpowers my iPod. And there are few things on the railways more uncomfortable than knowing that you're pulling onto the WCML in the citroen saxo of trains.

156 are survivable most of the time, but they're noisy, the heating packs up regularly and they need some TLC. 153s are the same apart from the fact the seats are about a foot lower so are more uncomfortable.

Either way it's academic: 319s aren't going to be replacing the crap DMUs on most routes anytime soon due to the minor technicality of them being OHLE not diesel.

Where's this mysterious place served by both 143s and 185s?

The 319s, if overhauled to a similar standard as Merseyrail Electrics or SWT 455s, will be fine for Liverpool-Manchester & Blackpool-Manchester services. Given that 150s are broadly similar, a heavy overhaul to the same standards would make then suitable for a few more years, seeing as times are hard. I'd hazard a guess that the 172s are probably cheaper to run than 156/158s- The problem is the £1.2m per carriage cost which the government can't/won't pay, and no TOC will risk paying when their franchise may only last another 5-6years.