Transport Tycoon Forums

Richard Wilson travel with Christian Wolmar to discover just how terrible our railway system is.

Highest fares in Europe AND the highest tax payer subsidy, its a scandal and a national disgrace. The tax payer funds massive profits for private companies whilst we are also expected to pay £270 for a 180 mile trip from London to Manchester.

Worst Great Western get some of what they deserve but it was good to see a focus beyond the commuter out into the rest of the country.

The fares system is simply unforgivable, penalty fare for just about anything except by playing by the Byzantine rules the TOCs have come up with, getting a fine for getting off EARLY?

Or perhaps other don't think its all that bad.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/

Thought the programme went as far out as possible to make things look bad, although I do agree with many of the points made.

The railways seem to be totally running in the other direction to other industries where transaction costs are falling as price structures are simplified. End of the day we need to get rid of the 'tax-farming' system of rail privatisation we have now.

I quite enjoyed the programme. Not the most balanced piece of investigative journalism ever, but I think it highlights the problems the British railway system has quite nicely. I especially liked the part where he took the train from Reading to Paddington in rush-hour, and the lady who said she paid £4k a year for her season pass, and all she ever got, if she was lucky, was the luggage rack... that's pretty damn telling!

I felt that it didn't really meet up to the usual Dispatches quality, it basically became 45 minutes of people complaining rather than investigating why things haven't improved.

Disappointing in all really.

teccuk wrote:whilst we are also expected to pay £270 for a 180 mile trip from London to Manchester.

Only if you can't figure out how to book stuff in advance Express/long distance trains are not like a bus service. Only commuter services are really.
Though when I can find tickets for £20 to Crewe from Stevenage and £24 to Manchester (again from Stevenage) it does make you wonder.

Bit annoying that a journey across the other end of the country costs the same as going to London though

I think fines are pretty stupid. Up to £5000 plus criminal conviction for sitting in first class and yet only £1000 for trespassing? Hmm.
On the FCC routes though, we're often allowed to get off early or stop along route and continue later on. We're still using the service we paid for but taking longer with it

Might be interesting to check this Dispatches thing out though. Providing it's a fair representation and factual rather than opinionated.

Geo Ghost wrote:Only if you can't figure out how to book stuff in advance

Even journeys booked in advance these days tend to be much, much more expensive than just 5 years ago, in my experience. I used to be able to from Leuchars to Flint for no more than around £30 return in 2006/7 (with a railcard). And now it seems that the cheapest journey on that same route, booked in advance, is £65 return - over twice the price, and yet the journey will actually take longer and be more inconvenient, because there's no longer a direct train from Leuchars to Warrington Bank Quay (when things were changed about after Virgin CrossCountry became CrossCountry), meaning I have to change twice.

Also, I was looking at how much it'd cost for me to get down by train from Aberdeen to Dunfermline recently - not booked in advance, as this was not an event I had planned for. It was significantly cheaper - and quicker - to drive, which is a shame, really. You're not going to encourage people out of their cars if - even with 131.9p/litre petrol ( ) - it's cheaper for them to drive. And no, that doesn't mean you should increase the price of petrol further, or tax cars more!

Train fares are just ridiculous. In my limited knowledge, some lines are more subsidised that others (obviously, and this isn't really a bad thing), but the ones that aren't such as a train from Taunton-Birmingham NS that costs £16.50 each way (if you're lucky enough to get the advances one) is just silly. XCountry even advertise in their stations that you can go from Birmingham NS to Bristol TM for ONLY £11 single. ONLY?! Rip. Off.

I've found that booking train tickets the day before, to be picked up at the station, usually brings a large discount. So provided the trip really isn't last minute, savings can easily be made.


A quick look at prices for Bath Spa to London Paddington (1hr 30 min, Intercity) gives £28 for an off peak super saver, and £20 for the same ticket if I buy the day before on the Internet.

If I book more (>2 weeks) in advance I can get it for about £15 for most non-rush hour trains, which isn't bad.

I certainly have managed to get some fantastic deals booking in advance in the past (my £7.50-ish direct train to London from Leuchars in August 2008 probably being the best). It just seems that - for the routes I may vaguely contemplate taking the train on these days - prices are much, much higher than I ever remember them being.

orudge wrote:

Geo Ghost wrote:Only if you can't figure out how to book stuff in advance

Even journeys booked in advance these days tend to be much, much more expensive than just 5 years ago, in my experience.

I definitely agree with you there. Even in advanced there are still many stupidly high prices and it's a matter of luck or searching around a lot to find the cheapest deal.
I found a ticket to London buried in my cupboard a month ago. 1997 it was printed I believe. Cost something like £11 for a travel-card (normal one) where as now it's something like £23 depending on the time of travel.

Train travel really should be cheaper but as should bus travel too. Services aren't too bad though.
Bring back British Rail!

I've only lived in the UK for three years, but the increase in fares has been quite noticable. Booking in advance can get you some pretty good deals, but even so, a lot of train journeys bought on the day are still ridiculously expensive; especially short ones. And whilst I expect long-distance journeys to be expensive, some of the prices they are asking are just laughable. I come from Sweden, and train travel there isn't cheap, but even if you buy your ticket on the day, the max you pay for, say, a trip from Stockholm to Malmö is still only going to be about £100-£120. And that's for a five-hour journey! No way I'd get that kind of price here for a journey that long. Finally, yes, booking in advance will get you some nice deals, but only if you know how to book them, and not everyone does. I was looking up a journey from Colchester to Gatwick Airport, and National Rail quoted me a fare of £47 single for two people with railcards, but if I split the journey up into two, it'll be £25 plus tube fare. Where's the logic in that??

I've just watched the program in question and I have to agree with Ameecher; it didn't seem to have a point, other than to just moan about the railways. There were some vague ideas about cost cutting, but it didn't even speculate as to how Railtrack / Network Rail were supposedly haemorrhaging the taxpayers money. It only briefly mentioned how the current system fails to benefit the users of the railways.

To my mind, the biggest problem is that the TOCs can't own their trains and instead of leasing them at a fair rate from the government, they have to pay exorbitant rates to the TOSCOs. I read somewhere a while ago that a coach costs £2million to buy outright, yet the TOSCOs charge around £500,000 per year to the TOCs. If they charge £500,000 over 30 years thats £13million profit, per carriage. Guess who foots the bill?

Oh, and who owns the TOSCOs?

Angel Trains - until 2008 it was RBS.
Eversholt Rail - HSBC.
Porterbrook Leasing - Santander, since 2000.


Banks.

It always comes back to those b****** the banks huh.

The advanced fares things is no big plus, you have a really confusing system, which only train nerds like me (and you guys i think is clear) like playing about with.

Fact is if your journey changes your going to be paying a massive amount. And really, i mean really, there's a 1/2 hour service on the busy bit of XCountry, why in the name of all that is holy should you have to book 3 months in advance to get an affordable fare?

Two things i want confirmed:
If you miss a pre-booked connection because the connecting train was late, can you take a different train? My FGW to Paddington was late so i missed my midland mainline and was told my ticket was no longer valid. I got on anyway and got away with it, but what do Terms say?
Secondly, i often get a cheaper train, but more time consuming train to London, because its nicer (not FGW) and take a nice route. I buy all the way to Waterloo but get off early sometimes to visit a relative. That's wrong? You can't do that? WTF?!

With regards to your first thing - no, you cannot jump on the next connect. You can attempt to argue with staff - and you may get lucky - but advanced tickets are strictly for that set train. You can try getting on the next train, and buy a standard single from the ticket guy on the train, and then try claiming this back from the company at fault. Not sure you'd have any luck either way. You do get various levels of compensation depending on how late your train is though.. I think a two hour delay is the whole amount of money back.

Obviously Master Worley and other such knowledgeable people will have a lot more info on this!

When I started uni, I could get from Oxford to London for £2.65 on a Saturday morning on FGW if I booked in advance.
Fat chance of that now.
The train is so uncompetitive these days that I never use it when travelling between Oxford and London, I use the coach, which is a 24/7 service and significantly more frequent than the train, turn up when you like, £5 a go (if you buy 12 singles in a pack).
That is how the railways should (in an ideal world) be run.

That I should need to book days in advance for a train which will have hardly anyone on it at the best of times just to get a half-decent fare is ridiculous.

That said, just this morning I went from Lancaster to Bridge of Allan for £9.90, which is not bad at all. A standard single would have been ~£60.


Switzerland brings back fond memories. The fare structure is simple. You pay a flat, sensible fare, either on the day or in advance. You board any train, you go.
Admittedly it could be cheaper, but you can get a half price card (at a medium sum) if you're a frequent traveller.

John wrote:I've found that booking train tickets the day before, to be picked up at the station, usually brings a large discount. So provided the trip really isn't last minute, savings can easily be made.

All well and good if there is a ticket machine/office at the station! When I'm at home and I adopt this strategy I have to buy a single to Norwich to pick up my ticket! Just as well that is in the region of £2-3

SwissFan91 wrote:With regards to your first thing - no, you cannot jump on the next connect. You can attempt to argue with staff - and you may get lucky - but advanced tickets are strictly for that set train. You can try getting on the next train, and buy a standard single from the ticket guy on the train, and then try claiming this back from the company at fault. Not sure you'd have any luck either way. You do get various levels of compensation depending on how late your train is though.. I think a two hour delay is the whole amount of money back.

Obviously Master Worley and other such knowledgeable people will have a lot more info on this!

So essentially, if you buy a ticket from a train company, and they fail to get you in time to the place they said they'd get you to, at the time they said they would, they won't allow you to get on the next service if you miss a connection because of THEIR fault. Where the heck is the logic in that???

GurraJG wrote:

SwissFan91 wrote:With regards to your first thing - no, you cannot jump on the next connect. You can attempt to argue with staff - and you may get lucky - but advanced tickets are strictly for that set train. You can try getting on the next train, and buy a standard single from the ticket guy on the train, and then try claiming this back from the company at fault. Not sure you'd have any luck either way. You do get various levels of compensation depending on how late your train is though.. I think a two hour delay is the whole amount of money back.

Obviously Master Worley and other such knowledgeable people will have a lot more info on this!

So essentially, if you buy a ticket from a train company, and they fail to get you in time to the place they said they'd get you to, at the time they said they would, they won't allow you to get on the next service if you miss a connection because of THEIR fault. Where the heck is the logic in that???

They make more money out of you ...

But it reinforces what's bad about this obsession with advanced tickets.

Man i'm really, really angry about that if its true

GurraJG wrote:

SwissFan91 wrote:With regards to your first thing - no, you cannot jump on the next connect. You can attempt to argue with staff - and you may get lucky - but advanced tickets are strictly for that set train. You can try getting on the next train, and buy a standard single from the ticket guy on the train, and then try claiming this back from the company at fault. Not sure you'd have any luck either way. You do get various levels of compensation depending on how late your train is though.. I think a two hour delay is the whole amount of money back.

Obviously Master Worley and other such knowledgeable people will have a lot more info on this!

So essentially, if you buy a ticket from a train company, and they fail to get you in time to the place they said they'd get you to, at the time they said they would, they won't allow you to get on the next service if you miss a connection because of THEIR fault. Where the heck is the logic in that???

Penalty Fares legislation puts the responsibility on the passenger to ensure they have a valid ticket for their journey, which wouldn't be such a problem if the issue of validity wasn't so darn complicated! But essentially, If I was travelling from Denby Dale to Liverpool Lime Street, with the TPE section of the route on an advance ticket, it would be up to me to make sure I got to Huddersfield in time for the service I was booked on. If some problem with the Penistone Line meant I was on a later service, i'd have to speak to staff at Huddersfield to avoid being charged a penalty fare. This has happened before, and it has been okay- the problem is A LOT of people just assume they can get the next train, and get a shock when their tickets are checked!

I'm not sure how it works if you miss the train of the same TOC. Such as, a XCountry train is late, so I miss my XCountry connection, but jump on another XCountry train. Might get some leeway there, but I doubt it.