Complain about slack timetables all you like...

[Dave]

... This one takes the cake:

1M11 GLC-EUS (SLE)
LAN 02/44 03/58 (74 late due to emergency engineering works)
EUS 0700 0710 (10 late)

So the Lowland Sleeper today made up what amounts to an hour in three hours.

And you're telling me it's not a slack timetable!?

[Kevo00]

The sleeper has to be slow, to give everyone time to get some decent kip in!

[Parkey]

Absolutely.

I say send it around the fife loop a few times so that the passengers can have a lie in.

[JamieLei]

There's no point telling them they could walk across to platform 2 and get across to Glasgow in 4h25! I think WSMR should create a sleeper train - Holyhead in 9 hours. Makes for a nice long kip!

[Ameecher]

The sleeper is timed for 80mph to give the best ride/speed combination. If it's late then they just whack up the speed, afterall, it can go 100mph if needed.

[teccuk]

Actually I was thinking about sleepers the other day. I wonder if an open access operator could really make a good go at turning a profit with some routes like London - Holyhead, a better London - SW and a SW to Scotland route... if i win the lottery ... i'll be back on this one.

[JamieLei]

The trouble is that the stock would only be used once per day, so it's a poor use of rolling stock compared to the leasing costs. Also with prices at £1million per coach, I doubt that even winning the lottery could pay for a sleeper train!

The Green Bus, an operator of school bus services has astronomically high fares due to the fact the buses only get used twice per day. Our school buses on the other hand are operated by the local bus company, which results in a much lower fare and the buses proceed to get used throughout the day.

Now a London to Berlin, or Manchester to Nice train would be extremely useful! However would sleeping at 180mph be possible? Also the Paris to Barcelona/Madrid trenhotel travels at quite a high speed but I'm not sure how fast

[andel]

Actually I was thinking about sleepers the other day. I wonder if an open access operator could really make a good go at turning a profit with some routes like London - Holyhead, a better London - SW and a SW to Scotland route... if i win the lottery ... i'll be back on this one.

Not really overly profitable - the breakeven on such a route over night would be pretty tough to meet - the London-Scotland ones both often run half-full during the week... the London-Cornwall service is often running at a loss.

The problem lies within both the track-access charges and the need for loco-hauled stock as well as staff (you need about 1 member per carriage), bedding and laundry, decent stock...

There is not a lot of sleeper stock left - only about 5 or 6 I think - enough for 1 short set, but what about lounge cars for those who can't sleep? Catering for those who want food... you get my meaning...

Jamie - it would not cost £1million per coach. Its a bit less than that. You could buy 5 Mk3 sleeper coaches with £5 million quid and have enough change left over to buy a JamieLei on ebay and push him in front of them... well, I didn't say I'd bought a loco yet!!

...

or have I?!

[teccuk]

I suppose you could be right Andel. Additionally perhaps the UK is just a bit too small.

I used sleepers in Europe during an interail holiday. Madrid to Barca, Zurich to Berlin, Berlin to Amsterdam, also on separate occasions Paris to Milan. They were completely and totally stuffed full, often had to wait a day or two to get on one even when booking the minute i arrived at the station. They were comfortable and I got a good nights kip. But... i suppose you compare the time /cost to flying and you see why they tend not to work all the time.

[andel]

I suppose you could be right Andel.

Of course I'm right. I'm the Daddy - I know everything (according to my little brother-in-law and daughter!)

[teccuk]

Haha! Well y'know kids say the silliest things

[Dave]

There was a cracking article in The Guardian not long ago about using the sleeper...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/j ... transport1

Makes some pretty good points.

[JamieLei]

Jamie - it would not cost £1million per coach. Its a bit less than that. You could buy 5 Mk3 sleeper coaches with £5 million quid and have enough change left over to buy a JamieLei on ebay and push him in front of them... well, I didn't say I'd bought a loco yet!!

Multiple units usually cost about £1.5 million per coach. The pendolinos cost near £1.8 million per coach. So factoring in the cost of providing bunks, walls, doors, sinks with running water, power points and more advanced air-con that makes sure it penetrates every carriage, I would not be surprised if the cost got up to £1 million.

You might end up with the extra £200,000 to hire me for the night, but pushing me infront of a bunch of standing still sleeper coaches isn't on my list of services I provide XD

There was a cracking article in The Guardian not long ago about using the sleeper...

Really interesting article - thanks for that! To be honest, the sharing would put me off - although I'd be all for sharing a room with a friend and going to climb Ben Nevis

[Ameecher]

There are a load of Sleepers in private hands, BR over - ordered somewhat.

[Dave]

But getting them together wouldn't be easy.

Sleepers used to be really popular - there was a Barrow-in-Furness-London Euston sleeper back in the day (Wikipedia details that a Class 08 was booked to attach the Preston sleeping cars to the train). I mean... Who the f*** goes to Barrow-in-Furness?

[andel]

Jamie - it would not cost £1million per coach. Its a bit less than that. You could buy 5 Mk3 sleeper coaches with £5 million quid and have enough change left over to buy a JamieLei on ebay and push him in front of them... well, I didn't say I'd bought a loco yet!!

Multiple units usually cost about £1.5 million per coach. The pendolinos cost near £1.8 million per coach. So factoring in the cost of providing bunks, walls, doors, sinks with running water, power points and more advanced air-con that makes sure it penetrates every carriage, I would not be surprised if the cost got up to £1 million.

Multiple Units are a bit different, with integrated electronics, individual motor vehicles, air conditioning units with individual power supply systems, power doors, intregrated computer controlled P.I.S.... the list goes on. A typical loco-hauled coach with power doors (a la mk4) can come in at about £800,000 including basic visual P.I.S. and air conditioning...

[JamieLei]

A typical loco-hauled coach with power doors (a la mk4) can come in at about £800,000 including basic visual P.I.S. and air conditioning...

Ah I wasn't far off then - although fitting the sleeper fittings would cost a bit extra. Some PISes are good - like the Virgin ones that tell you not only what coach you are in, but also what time the train calls at each stop. The Chiltern PISes often think we're going the wrong way, and announce the next stop is Banbury when we've just passed it, and the NatEx West Midlands ones on the buses display the time and nothing else. iBus my arse!

I mean... Who goes to Barrow-in-Furness?

Probably Dave Worley, since the train would inevitably also call at Preston
Maybe they needed somewhere up north where the people wouldn't trash the train?..

[3pr]

I will be getting the sleeper back to Plymouth from Heathrow (changing at Slough and Reading I think) and without a doubt it will be the most convenient way to travel. After the jet lag what would be better than sleeping while traveling back? It is genuinely more suitable than a quick train home then sleep, or a hotel then an early train. Significantly cheaper too at around £25. They certainly serve a genuinely useful function above nostalgia.

I believe it also even gets me in time for the short early service back to my village. Ideal.

[rtah100]

I can answer the Barrow-in-Furness question (because I once had a conversation about sleeper trains with a somebody who used to take the train in question):

Ministry of Defence employees and BNFL/AEA employees and visitors, for the shipyards and for Sellafield respectively.

I believe there were sleeper services to Preston (near a large BNFL facility) for similar reasons.

I found this thread via Google because I was looking for answers to following question: why are there no sleeper services on DMU/DEMU/EMU trainsets? All sleeper services seem to be locohauled. I know that multiple units can be noisy and vibrate, but they have improved a lot. MU sleeper services could be split in operation, so that a single path on a mainline could serve e.g. all of the Cornish branch line destinations (or Barnstaple, which is the personal reason I was wondering about this).

Does anybody have any views, on whether multiple units could be the answer to a more dynamic sleeper train network?

[3pr]

Very good question about multiple unit sleepers and breaking them up for branch lines. I would guess that it is to do with under investment. It would make a lot of sense for what you are suggesting. Especially as numbers of passengers can be well predicted if the service business customers. Maybe just the general inflexibility of rail transport to change too. I mean, what ever happened to chartering trains for football matches?

Not a great response to what you asked I know, but I saw your post and couldn't help trying to assist a fellow Cornish person!