Downloadable Graphics from servers?

Discuss, get help with, or post new graphics for TTDPatch and OpenTTD, using the NewGRF system, here. Graphics for plain TTD also acceptable here.

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d4sh
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Downloadable Graphics from servers?

Post by d4sh »

Hello & thanks for a great game! I didn't see this question anywhere, otherwise i need to practice my search-fu.. :lol:

Me and my brother have recently started playing over the internet, and although it is competitive to play with the standard vehicles, it can get quite boring in the long run. This is where the problem starts, adding new graphics limits us because if we want other people to join our server, they dont have the new graphics sets themselves or if we want to join another server with new graphics it is really hard and takes a lot of time to search for all the individual graphic-packages.

It shouldnt be too much programming to add an optional "automatic GRF download" possibility for people running servers. If we did that I think we would see much more graphics running instead of the standard ones..
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Post by Rubidium »

Not going to happen due to legal issues and this has been discussed multiple times already (but I can't be bothered to search for such a thread).
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Post by d4sh »

aw man thats the biggest thing hindering online play.. :cry:
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Post by FooBar »

Just make a list of all the GRF-sets you're using and include the location of where to download them. Send that list to your friends who want to join.

Another way is to only use sets included in GRFCrawler. Users who want to join can easily get a list of required sets trough the Server List. There's also a link to search for all the GRFs in GRFCrawler.
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Post by Bilbo »

Rubidium wrote:Not going to happen due to legal issues and this has been discussed multiple times already (but I can't be bothered to search for such a thread).
Legal isues? Many multiplayer FPS games (enemy territory, quake3, quake4, UT ....actually, almost all of the newer ones) have possibility of downloading content required for play (new maps, graphics ...) and I can't recall any legal issues with that.
If you need something, do it yourself or it will be never done.

My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)
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Post by Raven »

More like artist issues. A lot of time goes into developing this stuff, the least an user can do is get into their webpages and get the content (via grfcrawler or whatever). Auto-download gives little to no credit to these heroes of TT.
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Bilbo
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Post by Bilbo »

Raven wrote:More like artist issues. A lot of time goes into developing this stuff, the least an user can do is get into their webpages and get the content (via grfcrawler or whatever). Auto-download gives little to no credit to these heroes of TT.
Well, I tried joining server with NewGRF (using latest nightly) and this is what I got as result (attachment)...

There is lot of newgrf on that server (like maybe 20 or 30 packages) and for each of them I have only GRF ID and md5sum. Not exactly the right information if I want to get all those newrf's right? Tried both ofr these at grfcrawler ... and seems it is not the right information that can be used to get the newgrf

If direct download is not to be supported, maybe at least aid user in geting newGRF ... maybe if there will be some button like "get all newgrfs" that will get user to some page that will contain one download link for each missing newgrf or something like that.

Shall I file a bug in FS for this?
Attachments
Joining server with newGRF
Joining server with newGRF
newgrf.png (50.81 KiB) Viewed 10730 times
If you need something, do it yourself or it will be never done.

My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)
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Post by Bilbo »

Ah, nice .. so maybe if the "Search for all above GRFs" link would be somehow invokable directly from openttd (using default browser ...), that may be even better :)
If you need something, do it yourself or it will be never done.

My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)
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Post by osai »

Bilbo wrote:
Ah, nice .. so maybe if the "Search for all above GRFs" link would be somehow invokable directly from openttd (using default browser ...), that may be even better :)
If you are searching for the grfs of the #openttdcoop Server its quite easy. We provide a grf package containing all the grfs you need and its legal. :-)
http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/GRF
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Post by Bilbo »

osai wrote:
Bilbo wrote:
Ah, nice .. so maybe if the "Search for all above GRFs" link would be somehow invokable directly from openttd (using default browser ...), that may be even better :)
If you are searching for the grfs of the #openttdcoop Server its quite easy. We provide a grf package containing all the grfs you need and its legal. :-)
http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/GRF
Well, actually, your server was merely the first one (actually, for the nightly build I just got the only one) I encountered that required some newGRF. While it solve the problem for your server nicely, not all servers offer something like "download all grf in one file". Some servers (like the ones someone hosts on their home connection) don't even have a website ... for those, feature to find out/download all GRF's will come handy ...
If you need something, do it yourself or it will be never done.

My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)
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Post by Maedhros »

Bilbo wrote:There is lot of newgrf on that server (like maybe 20 or 30 packages) and for each of them I have only GRF ID and md5sum. Not exactly the right information if I want to get all those newrf's right? Tried both ofr these at grfcrawler ... and seems it is not the right information that can be used to get the newgrf
It was a bug that the name wasn't shown in the newgrf window, which Rubidium has now fixed and will be in the next nightly. :)
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Post by DaleStan »

Bilbo wrote:Legal isues? Many multiplayer FPS games (enemy territory, quake3, quake4, UT ....actually, almost all of the newer ones) have possibility of downloading content required for play
Yah. Because the content was created *after* the content distribution system was created, and everyone knew what would happen to their content.

It didn't work that way in the TTD world. The content already exists, and most of it is governed by licenses that prohibit redistribution.
To get a good answer, ask a Smart Question. Similarly, if you want a bug fixed, write a Useful Bug Report. No TTDPatch crashlog? Then follow directions.
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Post by Bilbo »

DaleStan wrote:
Bilbo wrote:Legal isues? Many multiplayer FPS games (enemy territory, quake3, quake4, UT ....actually, almost all of the newer ones) have possibility of downloading content required for play
Yah. Because the content was created *after* the content distribution system was created, and everyone knew what would happen to their content.

It didn't work that way in the TTD world. The content already exists, and most of it is governed by licenses that prohibit redistribution.
Hmm ... so IF the newgrf format slightly evolves (seems so from various forum threads on this topic), maybe add some field like allow_automatic_download_from_servers
if/when something like that will get implemented, only those newgrfs which have this set to true will be served. And authors then will have time to enable it in their creations (if they want to ....) before this will get implemented. I think this will suffice from the legal side ...
If you need something, do it yourself or it will be never done.

My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)
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Post by DaleStan »

Even if you add such a flag, I doubt many people will set it. Requiring, or even merely encouraging, that the distribution be only from known, controlled sites keeps down the number of bug reports for which the resolution is "go upgrade".
To get a good answer, ask a Smart Question. Similarly, if you want a bug fixed, write a Useful Bug Report. No TTDPatch crashlog? Then follow directions.
Projects: NFORenum (download) | PlaneSet (Website) | grfcodec (download) | grfdebug.log parser
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Post by Moriarty »

DaleStan wrote:
Bilbo wrote:Legal isues? Many multiplayer FPS games (enemy territory, quake3, quake4, UT ....actually, almost all of the newer ones) have possibility of downloading content required for play
Yah. Because the content was created *after* the content distribution system was created, and everyone knew what would happen to their content.

It didn't work that way in the TTD world. The content already exists, and most of it is governed by licenses that prohibit redistribution.
Hypothetical scenario:
I am playing the nightly against by friend. I have GRF A and GRF B installed.
My friend has neither.


So what are my options?
1) Dig out the URL's to GRF A and B, send them to my friend and wait for the downloads to complete before spending several mins explaining how to install them.
But GRF A has been updated since I downloaded it, and now I must download a newer copy even though I'm find with my old one which I know works Even more time wasted.

2) Zip the two GRF's up and send them to my friend using email/Instant Messenger/whatever. Another few minutes explaining how to install them.

3) Have the game automatically share the things. If you really care about the player redistributing stuff and want to side-skip that hornets nest, you can even add a big warning button that says "are you sure you want to send your GRF's to your friend", with relevent Yes/No.


Now, how are options 2 and 3 different when it comes to "redistribution licenses"? From my perspective they are identical. In both cases the user is redistributing the GRF, irrespective of whatever the silly license says. Or am I missing something?

The only real difference between 2 and 3 that I can see is the amount of time and effort wasted by the player to do these things.

Could someone please point out the flaw in my thinking.
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Post by michael blunck »

Moriarty wrote: [...]
2) Zip the two GRF's up [...]

3) Have the game automatically share the things. If you really care about the player redistributing stuff and want to side-skip that hornets nest, you can even add a big warning button that says "are you sure you want to send your GRF's [...]

Now, how are options 2 and 3 different when it comes to "redistribution licenses"? From my perspective they are identical. In both cases the user is redistributing the GRF, irrespective of whatever the silly license says. Or am I missing something?

[...]

Could someone please point out the flaw in my thinking.
Yes, sure. Because my license (and there may be others as well) requires to redistribute the whole package, consisting of the .grf and the donotreadme including the licence. The .grf may not be re-distributed without the license, which I put, maliciously, into the donotreadme.

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Post by athanasios »

:idea: Some code to include licence in GRF, that could be displayed like "About 'OpenTTD'" or when you add the grf?
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Post by Ruxton »

How about a setting in the GRF with a link to a zip file that contains all the appropriate things needed to redisribute said grf, license must be called license.txt.

Then, when you goto server and dont have the GRF, the server can tell you here to get the zip, you get the zip, it unpacks and prior to install, you must accept the license.txt.

Or.

Same idea, except licenses would be stored at the server to allow the license to be displayed prior to downloading the zip.
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Post by Bilbo »

Ruxton wrote:How about a setting in the GRF with a link to a zip file that contains all the appropriate things needed to redisribute said grf, license must be called license.txt.

Then, when you goto server and dont have the GRF, the server can tell you here to get the zip, you get the zip, it unpacks and prior to install, you must accept the license.txt.

Or.

Same idea, except licenses would be stored at the server to allow the license to be displayed prior to downloading the zip.
"Accepting the licence prior to installing" ... heh, most newgrf's are in zipfiles with instructions like "unpack in newgrf directory". Technically it is impossible to force user to "accept" the license (unless youmake some silly installer), most time there is some notice on the newgrf website like "This stuff is under GPL license, see gpl.txt in the archives for details".

Also, most licenses of newgrfs do not limit use in any way, they only make conditions for redistribution.

What may be best is to put in some button that will open in default browser a webpage from GRFCrawler with lists of ID's. You can then download all newgrfs from there
If you need something, do it yourself or it will be never done.

My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)
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