Problems with r3464...

Jessica · Post by **Jessica** » 04 Feb 2006 20:26

Hi Guys,

I’ve just downloaded ‘OTTD-Source-nightly-r3464’ (supposed to be the last nightly with PBS) but I don’t have an ‘openttd.exe’ file to run the game.

Can someone tell me what I’m doing wrong?

Jessica

hertogjan · Post by **hertogjan** » 04 Feb 2006 20:29

You downloaded the source code. You will get the exe-file when you compile the code. If you aren't interested in the code, you should download the binary (which one depends on your operating system), which you can play immediately (without having to compile).

Sacro · Post by **Sacro** » 04 Feb 2006 20:38

If its a .exe your after, then you want the win32 (zip) release,

http://nightly.openttd.org/win32/OTTD-w ... -r3464.zip to save you time

Jessica · Post by **Jessica** » 04 Feb 2006 20:46

Thanks Guys,

I thought I did something wrong.

I've just started another game using r3464. I rely on PBS a lot – the efficiency of my layouts depend on PBS. I just couldn’t play the game without it.

I understand PBS was removed because it was full of bugs. I don’t think I’ve ever come across a bug when using PBS. Does any one know what the problem was? It worked just fine for me.

Cheers,

Jessica

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 04 Feb 2006 21:10

I'm aware of eight bugs/bug classes:
1) Dependence on NPF
2) The whole exit-PBS-signal concept (any signal should be vaild on the exit side of a PBS block)
3) The lack of non-presig'ed PBS
4) The viral nature of the auto-PBSing "feature"
5) Tracks don't always get unreserved after a crash
6) Stuck trains that can't be reversed
7) Two-way stations causing said stuck trains
8) Random train crashes

Brianetta · Post by **Brianetta** » 05 Feb 2006 01:00

9) After a train crash, paths are freed for use after the crashed locomotive is removed, allowing trains to enter the block and crash into any unremoved, crashed rolling stock.

Sacro · Post by **Sacro** » 05 Feb 2006 02:14

Brianetta wrote:9) After a train crash, paths are freed for use after the crashed locomotive is removed, allowing trains to enter the block and crash into any unremoved, crashed rolling stock.

9b) not always though, sometimes paths arent freed after its been cleared

sc79 · Post by **sc79** » 05 Feb 2006 07:56

I'm aware of eight bugs/bug classes:
1) Dependence on NPF
2) The whole exit-PBS-signal concept (any signal should be vaild on the exit side of a PBS block)
3) The lack of non-presig'ed PBS
4) The viral nature of the auto-PBSing "feature"
5) Tracks don't always get unreserved after a crash
6) Stuck trains that can't be reversed
7) Two-way stations causing said stuck trains
Random train crashes

Non-existant feature != bug.
1-3) i wouldnt class as bugs.
4) as above.. and you can turn it on/off for a reason...
7) isnt PBS-specific, is it?

I've never had a 'random' crash (think this would be covered by 5&9, no?)
6) Never had this issue either
5) come across this once or twice, pretty easy fix
9) havent had this problem either, but then im usually working around any crashes, with trains manually stopped, trying to get my network partly working in the mean time

I'd almost say that the PBS bugs that exist are only a problem with bad track/station design, since they basically require a crash before they'll appear

Atleast, having played with PBS since it was added, I havent seen much at all to back up the 'full of bugs' comment. Do a few still exist? Sure. Common enough to bin the whole thing? No way IMO.

Seems the decision has been made for good though. As the ones putting in most of the effort, its a call the developers can make. Doesnt mean it will reflect the majority of opinion, or be popular though.

Graphite · Post by **Graphite** » 05 Feb 2006 08:10

sc79 wrote: Non-existant feature != bug.

Along that logic:

Not having an issue with it != !bug

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 05 Feb 2006 08:24

1) NPF kills performance on slow machines, or big games, and it's been clearly demonstrated (see TTDPatch) that PBS can be implemented with the old pathfinder.
2) This is *the* major cause of #4 (in either of its forms). That which causes a bug is itself a bug, in my book.
3) Talk to Brianetta about this one. Or just about any (other?) co-op player. It absolutely ruins systems that would work just fine in TTDPatch.
4) OK then, PBS's RSI-friendliness. Again, see TTDPatch. I make one signal in each junction PBS and all appropriate signals go PBS, but it doesn't walk all over the map. Not so in Open.
5) "Easy to fix" is not the same as "not a bug".
6) As graphite points out, "Never had this problem" is also not the same as "not a bug".
7) What? Trains stuck in PBS junctions is not PBS specific?
8) See #6. And no, it's not covered by 5 and 9. With no random crashes, neither 5 nor 9 can ever happen in the first place.
9) "I never have this problem because I'm busy working around a different bug" is just another way of *not* saying "not a bug". (If that confused you, see #6.)

MeusH · Post by **MeusH** » 05 Feb 2006 08:53

DaleStan wrote:4) OK then, PBS's RSI-friendliness. Again, see TTDPatch. I make one signal in each junction PBS and all appropriate signals go PBS, but it doesn't walk all over the map. Not so in Open.

What? Don't you know about PBS autocompletion? Just pick the right junction, make signal a PBS signals and all junction signals will be changed into PBS

Jessica · Post by **Jessica** » 05 Feb 2006 10:58

Thanks for all the replies.

But, as I said, I've never had any problems with it. My trains don't crash!

I think it should be included. The ‘benefits’ outweigh the ‘bugs’.

Just my thoughts...

Jessica

Brianetta · Post by **Brianetta** » 05 Feb 2006 19:20

MeusH wrote:
DaleStan wrote:4) OK then, PBS's RSI-friendliness. Again, see TTDPatch. I make one signal in each junction PBS and all appropriate signals go PBS, but it doesn't walk all over the map. Not so in Open.
What? Don't you know about PBS autocompletion? Just pick the right junction, make signal a PBS signals and all junction signals will be changed into PBS

That's not the problem. Problem is, if you delete a signal (to position it differently, for example) the signal at the end of the next block turns into a PBS signal. If you delete it, the one after it turns. Sure, this only happens if trains are running nearby, but I once chased a PBS block all around my network until I understood what was going on.

sc79 · Post by **sc79** » 05 Feb 2006 20:54

1) Isnt that an issue with NPF rather than PBS? Yes, PBS uses NPF, but you're looking at the wrong problem. Id use NPF even without PBS, otherwise my networks would go to hell (or require massive numbers of waypoints).
2) TTDP does it differently, but Im assuming it was deliberately coded this way in OTTD. Just because you dont like the implementation doesnt make it a bug.
3) See 2.
4) Fairly easy concept once you know how to (re)move the PBS blocks. But if thats a major 'bug' concern, just disable it (cant be hard, since the menu option is already there).

7) I thought this was an issue with pre-sig stations too. The station design has the same problem, but trains turn around. My bad. But, since the station design doesnt work *at all* currently, id wonder why you were using it in your network to cause stuck trains in the first place.

Crashes can happen though user error. I cant recall having a crash where i cant look and say 'oops, forgot to do that' (and see below).

As to the other comments (and yes, it probably wasnt clear enough); Ok, these bugs exist, I'll take your word on that (of course

). But the fact is, I, and it seems the majority of people, very rarely, if ever, come across them. If they were as common as gets suggested, and as detremental to play as you make them sound, people would have been complaining long ago to have PBS fixed/taken out, not about it being removed now.

Sacro · Post by **Sacro** » 05 Feb 2006 23:32

You can turn off auto-pbs in a local game, however when your playing multiplayer, its a global settings which affects all players, that only the server (i belive) can change.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 06 Feb 2006 04:35

1) If taking screenshots in OTTD requires that you have the GIMP running, but the GIMP bogs down your machine, is that a problem with the GIMP, or with OTTD?
2) Lets try this again: "That which causes a bug is itself a bug."
3) http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=23319
4) This is a bug regardless of whether it's on or off. If I've got PBS junctions wandering all over the map, that's a bug. If setting fifteen of the sixteen signals around a junction PBS doesn't either (a) make the sixteenth PBS, or (b) work as is (that is, no train crashes), that's also a bug. Crashes because I'm being actively stupid are one thing; crashes because I forgot something that anyone (human or computer) can tell I meant to do are an entirely different matter.
7) Stuck trains are a bug, regardless of what causes them. I'm not using it, but obviously some people are. Realism maybe?

People have been complaining about PBS bugs for a long time. Would you really rather have PBS and no 0.4.5? Not that your answer really makes any difference. PBS is out, and it's going to stay out until an developer appears to fix the bugs and continue active development of PBS. (Darkvater, paraphrased)

sc79 · Post by **sc79** » 06 Feb 2006 05:29

Not that your answer really makes any difference.

Sums it up nicely, doesnt it..

Brianetta · Post by **Brianetta** » 06 Feb 2006 09:05

sc79 wrote:
Not that your answer really makes any difference.
Sums it up nicely, doesnt it..

Well, since 0.4.5 *is* out, it does - the question is moot.

gkirilov · Post by **gkirilov** » 06 Feb 2006 10:40

Well, I agree with sc79. Never had any issues with PBS. The only problem was when i put a depot in PBS junction (bad design). And the thing you state as a bug ( 4)The viral nature of the auto-PBSing "feature" ). I like that feature! And I really mean the feature. When I remove the exit signal of a PBS block, the next signal on the path is turned into PBS automatically...what's wrong with that? It keeps the PBS junction to function properly.
From the replies I read in this topic I see that most of the bugs are due to players mistakes (and not knowing the consequences of their actions).

Some player are no longer playing the nighlies (including me) just because there is not PBS there.
Why the new AI(which is not used at all i think) is still in the nighlies(and the official release) and the PBS was removed? Or maybe the AI is there because no one uses it?

edit: i don't want an official release with the pbs ..just include it back to the nighlies and add a switch. I care about PBS+(increasing) newGRF support which can be found only in the nighlies.
Not to mention that the ppl who doesn't want PBS "buggy" feature .. they can just NOT use it

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 06 Feb 2006 15:56

gkirilov wrote:( 4)The viral nature of the auto-PBSing "feature" ). I like that feature! And I really mean the feature. When I remove the exit signal of a PBS block, the next signal on the path is turned into PBS automatically...what's wrong with that?

The problem, as Brianetta has already said, is that if I'm pulling the signal to move it someplace else, then I may as well not put it back. Because no train will be able take that exit until the block after the new PBS signal is cleared anyway.

This is why 2 and 3 are bugs:
2) If the exit side didn't require a special signal, then removing a signal wouldn't change anything; the path would just run to the next signal on that line, instead of suddendly becoming not-a-PBS-path.
3) If I could set build the moved signal as an exit signal, instead of a combo, this problem would be less obvious (but still present), since then the breakage caused by the implicit presignalling wouldn't happen.

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