Transport Tycoon Forums

I don't think I've ever posted on this forum before, I'm mainly a lurker and a almost a leecher for new Loco content. I've just spent a few minutes reading through the 4 pages on the mis-accreditation of modifications that have been re-released through peripheral websites. I have to say it makes an interesting read.

It is a shame that any community has reached this stage.

If you've been surfing the web for a while, you may have come across Rail3D (RWSB - I know you have ). That’s where I write my "objects". So this debate does interest me greatly. I release my objects as freeware - some come with messages in the files asking that anyone who modifies them asks first (mainly incase I update them myself); but many don't. Actually I'm not that bothered.

I can't quite understand the very demanding nature of some of the posts throughout the Loco Thread here. If I create, and release an object then I am hoping people will use it. This means getting an 'audience'. When I get round to finishing my conversion of a BVE Belgium carriage to Rail3D I would hope to get a Belgian audience for it.

In essence I find it quite selfish of someone to say - "take down my item now"; for me that paraphrases "I don't want you to use my item", give a take a little. In this case the author concerned was worried about his model of a German loco appearing on a German forum. If you don't want other people to use your item then why bother to create it? Development will just stall if people take a selfish and possessive attitude to models. Yes you created it but creating sometime solely for your own benefit seems, almost pointless. As individuals in the community you can only ever do so much - but as a team the possibilities are endless...

Alan Perryman, aka alanp46

I know you are referring to me, and let me explain my reasoning.
I asked them to take it down, cause they put it on their site without permission, the version was outdated model, and finally and the last i want only 1 site to have my content publically avaible for download, cause then i am shure i am properly credited, and people see what hard work i done for the the content. I want, people to see who done it, and how hard he worked to do it. If you are not happy, to bad, but ultimately it is the artists decision.

I think that it's not that of a problem if someone is posting your stuff somewhere else on the internet, but if someone claims it's his or in any case not the original creator of the file, (in this example: 'me') I find that quite rude. If I want audiences I want them to know me for creating the file.

Whilst I see you raise valid points you have done so previously in an extreme way - demanding a file to be removed within x time frame isn't a professional or a good way achieving this objective.

The Internet is asynchronous communication. That means: I post a message, eventually, when you are really you read it. Imposing any time frame or limit will only lead to your disappointment when it doesn't happen. Some days I don't even go online for example!!

Secondly the manner in which you did so potentially alienated your audience. Bringing me to my second point:

Akalamanaia wrote:If you are not happy, too bad, but ultimately it is the artists decision.

I disagree. Without an audience and artist is nothing. I could be the most amazing painter since, say Picasso. It doesn't matter unless anyone sees and appreciates my work.

You can always publish your own work on a personal web page surrounded by warnings, make it clear to the user before they download it that you require tehem to have asked for permission before they begin any modifications.

Alanp46

You might disagree, but it is what it is. ITs my work, my time, my model, my code, my effort. I define the rules under it is downloaded, and where it is downloaded. Now please, don't continiue this fight. The thread was locked for a good reason previusly.

Akalamanaia wrote:You might disagree, but it is what it is. ITs my work, my time, my model, my code, my effort. I define the rules under it is downloaded, and where it is downloaded. Now please, don't continiue this fight. The thread was locked for a good reason previusly.

it might be you work, your time, your model, your code, your effort.

But in cases like this YOU cannot control it. Ever tried driving a bus without a steer? doubt you would achive it, and would even TRY it...

Same goes for here, You cannot steer those peoples who download it. All you can do, is give a warning before they enter the bus.


I study Technical Informatica @ school I am like the best programmer of my class, I finished all my *homeowkr* within the first week of this semester.

I send in my work. Then peoples started to ask me to send them my code. I said fine, but do notice, that I already send it in. (copyrighted). So make sure you change the code. just use it as an example. If they dont, then they wont pass that class, because of plagury (how ever you write it)

Thats like a thing how I CAN control my work, my time, my model, my code, my effort.

So its your choice to enter a steerless bus, or not.

In somecases, I would myself, because its not that important, if they want to remove the credit notes at the first few lines, go ahead, no problem.

If you publish your stuff, there is always the *danger* that peoples will miss-credit you. if you don't want that, then shut up, and don't publish -_-, if you don't mind, go ahead publish all you want. but don't go whine if it will be miss-credited

AFCOURSE yuo can tell the websiteowner that your stuff is miss-credited, but nothing will stop that siteowener not to change the credit.

You cannot just tag Your name all over the XML file, theres no space where to put comments or AUTHOR.
and i can control it, i can show pretty examples how the control is exercised with a help of a lawyer.

Lawyers are useless with internet problems, thats even if you can find the other guy, which I doubt you can, you'd have to trick him into going on your site, which can log IP addresses, taking his IP adress and hope it isn't a proxy or routed through somebody elses IP. Then you'd have to find the hostname, dial them up and ask if they have any usernames matching the one who stole yours, but that could be a dead end. So who simply be looking at the email host.

MGM and many other movie companies, game companies have showed that Lawyers in internet are not useless..their pretty intidimitating.

do you have the money to afford a computer literate lawyer who would do all the above though?

and for this "small problem"

We spend to much energy in complaining about it, while we only can sit and watch.

For this sorts of things the locomotion community will be dead in a short while, c'mon let's be frank, what is the real problem? that someone "stole" your file only because you put a copyright tag on it? well boohoo just let it go, and keep modding, there are more people that have fun with your mod than people that "steel" your mod.

As I said before I can understand that someone else puts his name under your mod, but all you can do at the moment is give him warnings but that is just wasted energy, because of 1: it doesn't really help, and 2: what is your gain???

So please stop this and ignore the weirdo that "stole" (My god I hate that word used here) your file.

This argumentation is going in circles, wich is exactly why the last thread was closed. Please, end it.

We should also keep in mind that we all are making modifications or additions to objects being created or even using code being created by Chris, who gave us Locomotion. He even let us do our modifications of his game as we want, so we should do the same.

Bernard

alanp46 wrote:I can't quite understand the very demanding nature of some of the posts throughout the Loco Thread here. If I create, and release an object then I am hoping people will use it. This means getting an 'audience'. When I get round to finishing my conversion of a BVE Belgium carriage to Rail3D I would hope to get a Belgian audience for it.

Agreed, but if someone spreads your work, you (as author) wants your name on it. You want people to know you made it.

There are people who just edit my work, and post it on the forums. Whenever they just say "Hey I edited Purno's work", it's fine with me. But anyways, I would like ppl to let me know wherfor my graphics are used. As I want audience, I want to know who is the audience, and if there's any enthusiasm about my graphics, I want to know it too (always nice to hear). Once the British Trainset for TT used a graphic I drew for them, that's ok, but I had to find out by downloading a release....

If we make modifications for a game, for example Locomotion, we name the game and, if we do it good, also the author.

IMO.

alanp46 wrote:....
If you've been surfing the web for a while, you may have come across Rail3D (RWSB - I know you have ).
.....

Strange that you picked me out, was there something that made you say my name? BTW, please use WEN on the forums, but you didn't know that, so I am not going to be "gobby".

My reasons for asking/demanding for the content to be removed is simple, the author didn't use the latest version, as such, a comment I felt was unjustified. I also didn't like the author using my own image as a screenshot, because I felt that was just "pure" lazyness, or it certaintly came across like that.

Alan, you should know me by now as a "hissing-fitter", that gets upset all to quicky! Also someone who just worries too much.

I also would of suggested that it was not a good idea to post a topic like this, as all I want to do, is rest it. The offender has said sorry, has removed it, has agreed with my reasons, big deal, move on.

BTW, yes, I am that kind enough, I know some people are going to complain about biting their heads off, but some objects I just say:
"
Heres the mesh
Heres the textures
Heres the basics
NOW GET ON WITH THE WORK!
"
Simple as that, mod with no fuss! Also, you may want to know, it applies to any object I have told you that you can, I.e. those that come with the "source"!

Here is the only such example I have (Sorry!):

So you see, I am not always "evil koevil"! In fact, I am damm well nice to people.

(also, please note that with this object, and ONLY this object, you do not need to ask to modify it, you do not need to credit me, and you can take it, show it, put it on your sever or anywhere you want. As I mentioned, it is completely free to use, modify and distribute.)

I reopened this debate because it is something that needs a discussion, and I've tried to "steer" the dialogue towards calm and open discussion.

"DaaNtje" is absolutly right. You cannot control at all what people do with whatever you release. You can ask politely that they do not further modify or distribute your content without permission? Regarding the XML files - have you tried adding new tags? You may or may not know that XML is just a standard format of self-defined tags. Does Loco crash if you at a tag <author-email> ?

On the legal side of things computing and lawyers generally do not mix particularly well. You only have to consider recent cases where the MPAA (Motion Picture Association of America) sued someone who was dead.

WEN - picked you out because I know who you are

Perhaps a community like this should establish a protocol for the distribution on modifications. I.e. a standard that is easily accesible (put it in a sticky thread!). Making unreasonable demands will only get you stressed, and each time it happens then it'll get worse. It's far easier just to sort it politely over the course of a few days.

alanp46

alanp46 wrote:I reopened this debate because it is something that needs a discussion, and I've tried to "steer" the dialogue towards calm and open discussion.

Good. If it starts getting nasty though, thats the end of it, and any others like it. I'm sure most people will back me up when I say that.

I think the attitude displayed by more than one person is "You give something away, but dont like others giving it away elsewhere"
I've only uploaded 2 or 3 files for Locomotion, scenarios. Alright their not the greatest. I'm giving it away here, so whats the problem with someone else giving it away somewhere else?

I think there is nothing more to discus about this subject.
Allmost everybody thinks that if you put something voluntairy on the net, it's free for all. With or without credits.
Your fans will, if they like your mods, certainly search the web to find more of your creations. then they automaticly will find this forum.
In only two cases i think it's bad that your mods are uploaded by thirth party webpages.
1: When someone else puts his name under your creation, pretending he is the designer.
2:If your creation is still under developement(Beta).
Then versions are spread around the net, where you aren't content with.