Tram and Trolleybus Discussion

George · Post by **George** » 28 Feb 2005 09:48

eis_os wrote:Wait a bit George, as I told you in earlier discussion I don't like the real oversized Busses. But now we have a different problem, George Long Vehicles are simple to big and don't fit in the TTD World.
So say I create the support for trams, how should the catenary displayed? LongBusses wouldn't anymore fit into normal streets, create big graphic glichtes all would look really ugly.
On the other side, if the catenary is higher than the Rail catenary, rails will look to small...
So for me the whole tram idea can't work. So thats what I will try to do:
Leave the trams in the impossible list. Create a drive thru station, much like you see in Loco. You can build the normal station or the new one. While I can now construct new bus stations with A LOT work I won't do that...
PS: I don't want any OpenTTD suggestion cross posts here or they will claim thats their idea, I have stolen code or something.

The question is: do you need any sprites to be drawn? If yes – what are they? How many parts? What’s the size?

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 28 Feb 2005 14:22

I don't see the overhead wires issue as a real problem. IRL tram wires are pretty high anyway, trams use higher pantographs (or trolley poles). That seems a weak reason to not do trams, if trams are possible otherwise.

Eventually I think it would be better to have both drive-through bus stations and also terminal bus stations. Maybe that will take some time though.

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 28 Feb 2005 14:40

The "Lichtraumprofil" for trams and trains are the same (here in germany at least) While trams can have reduced profiles, and smaller sizes. I haven't yet seen that a tram catanery is higher then from a normal track.

Look at some of George Long Vehicles as extreme sample:
Neoplan N138/4 'Jumbocruiser'

or
Neoplan N122/3L 'Skyliner'

well and what about
Leyland Olympian

I won't use my time if there is only broken output and graphical glitches...

Ohh, you can have the TTD station and the bus stop station type, but only one can be build of these two at a station...

DanMacK · Post by **DanMacK** » 28 Feb 2005 15:22

Oskar,

The streetcars in North America have a catenary height of anywhere from 18-20 feet. That said, to be honest, if I have to drop George's large buses to use drive-through stops and trams, so be it. The new buses look awesome, but 1px/ft scale IS a little big compared to the trains.

I'd say keep toying with the trams, see what you come up with. Even if we only get drive-through stations and catenary for trolley buses... this would be a bad thing? There are tons of people that would use the trams, I can guarantee you that.

The Irish · Post by **The Irish** » 28 Feb 2005 16:52

I agree with DanMacK

I would rather use trams then the big buses.
I always thought that those buses are too big, but somehow nobody else ever coplained so I thought I'm wrong.

So we need Tram graphics in the real size. I would surely use it.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 28 Feb 2005 18:04

eis_os wrote:I won't use my time if there is only broken output and graphical glitches...

Look, George likes the idea of trams. If it comes to it, I imagine that he'd put code in his Long Busses (it's just the busses that are a problem I think) to look for whatever switch turns on trams, such that if you have trams turned on, then you won't ever get the way-too-big busses in that game. Problem solved. Even without the extra big busses, there are plenty of other buses you can use. In fact, I think with drive-through stations, the efficiency will increase so you don't really need the huge capacity busses. And if you still have capacity problems, well, we can have large-capacity trams.

Which reminds me, would trams and busses use the same station stops, or would they be two different things? Or, you could have a station composed of both a tram-stop and a bus-stop?

eis_os wrote:Ohh, you can have the TTD station and the bus stop station type, but only one can be build of these two at a station...

OK, that's totally fine - you just choose which of the two you want at any given station. No problem with that.

George · Post by **George** » 28 Feb 2005 20:46

I can make a much better test: The AI will not buy high buses if trams are enabled. Human players can build them on the suburban and between cities, where are no trams present.
Here, near my house, the tram line crosses the bus line #404, where the double-decker MAN buses are used. There are no problems about it. I think that there is an international standard for distance between the land and the overhead contact system (I think it is something about 4.5m), and the standard for a bus high. The Leyland Olympian is 4.38m, Neoplan is 4m, Volvo is 3.7m. I think they are all designed to be lower, than the tram or trolleybus wires.

Back on topic. Oskar, do you need graphics for testing?

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 28 Feb 2005 21:13

well, currently I use the normal paved road sprites.

Patchman already said maybe he will add for the busstops grf support like new stations. So currently I can't say something about that system.

Some minutes ago the first bus stopped on a drive thru station, but well I have to force somehow non-stops for trucks, not easy :/

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 28 Feb 2005 22:38

Ah... so you say any bus running on a street which has got a drive-through station will stop at it and unload/load passengers? Just like a local train when it passes thru a station?

Raichase · Post by **Raichase** » 01 Mar 2005 06:35

Wow, Oskar, sounds good. I will be happy to mooch off of anything you create, especially if it is a drive through station (something that is really wanted by people who use inter-city buses anyway, like me

).

Love your work mate, keep it up!

.

Wile E. Coyote · Post by **Wile E. Coyote** » 01 Mar 2005 19:38

DanMacK wrote:There are tons of people that would use the trams, I can guarantee you that.

Not only trams, and trolleybuses too. If there will be possible to have 3 menus under road construction: road, electrified road (for trolleybuses) and tram rail, that will be great...

I know there are not more slots. Is it possible to add them in Patch?
If that idea will become alive, I volonteer for drawing:
ČKD trams
trolleybuses (vehicles and maybe catenary)

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 01 Mar 2005 20:45

Actually, yeah, if this is possible to do at all, I'd think it would be possible to have both caternary with no rails (for trolleybusses) and caternary with rails (for trams.) That way, caternary with no rails would come with a road if there wasn't one already, but caternary with rails wouldn't be related to road - there could be road in the same place, or not, as preferred.

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 01 Mar 2005 20:45

First the drive thru station should work in a useable form...
Well, and makeing a different system for each road mods creates a new layer of complicate stuff...

Railwaymodeler · Post by **Railwaymodeler** » 01 Mar 2005 20:56

If this ever becomes a go, I might add some suggestions as a local rail museum also works with trolleybuses:

2 kinds of breakdowns- the usual mechanical malfunction, which stops the vehicle for a day, and where the trolley pole slips of the wire, perhaps then the vehicle could stop then quickly get going again (without knowing TTD's programming for code, I could say that when a breakdown happens, a randomizing code determines what type.

Some busses, like the MCI Classic were offered either way, with poles or without. Perhaps a unique refit option?

lobster · Post by **lobster** » 01 Mar 2005 21:04

eis_os wrote:First the drive thru station should work in a useable form...

you know, drive-thru-stations could come in handy for normal busses as well. maybe even cargo trucks.

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 01 Mar 2005 21:11

easy

Some notes:
I will make a bus drive thru station, I have added now A LOT code to prevent Trucks trying to use a bus stop as loading bay...

If I write a tram code it will be limited to one type...
I did some research, well and the big question for trams is, how to make loops in the street so trams can turnaround on specific places. Then Bus -> Trams need to disable the reverse system. A good question, currently I have no answer

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 01 Mar 2005 22:30

I would say that the way to handle reverses is basically the same way the trucks reverse. They don't reverse just anywhere you know (unless you manually hit the Reverse button, we'd have to disable that for trams.) They either go around the block if they can, or they go to a dead-end and turn around there. We'd rig the tram-track the same way - when there's a dead end, there's a loop connecting the tracks on both sides so the tram can turn around. AFAIK, that would be identical to the way trucks already work. It would just take a little graphic eye-candy to display the loop connector, but the vehicle movement would be the same as it already is.

We'd have to disable the passing/overtaking function of trucks for trams, obviously trams cannot move into the other lane to pass a slower vehicle.

Wile E. Coyote · Post by **Wile E. Coyote** » 03 Mar 2005 17:24

krtaylor wrote:Actually, yeah, if this is possible to do at all, I'd think it would be possible to have both caternary with no rails (for trolleybusses) and caternary with rails (for trams.) That way, caternary with no rails would come with a road if there wasn't one already, but caternary with rails wouldn't be related to road - there could be road in the same place, or not, as preferred.

Pay attention, there is one wire for trams and two for trolleybuses.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 03 Mar 2005 17:32

Phooey, that's too complicated. We should have one and only one set of wires, which works for both trams and trolleybusses - and that wiring should have one wire over each lane, i.e. a total of two wires on each straight stretch of road. Trams of course could only go where there's track; trolleybusses could go where there are wires, regardless of the presence of track. Unlike a tram, a trolleybus could pop over to the opposing lane to pass a stopped or slow vehicle in front. I know there's a slight realism gap but I don't think it is at all reasonable to have different sorts of overhead caternary for trams vs. trolleybusses. It's just too much to ask.

Wile E. Coyote · Post by **Wile E. Coyote** » 03 Mar 2005 19:05

Maybe, but it's less realistic (trolleybuses with one wire)... But, if it isn't other way, we can do as you said.

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