Pre-signal bug?

Drifting^^ · Post by **Drifting^^** » 31 Dec 2004 09:30

I'm messing around with a 3 lane system where trains can move freely to lanes without traffic, like a kind of crawler/overtaking lane system. I use pre-signals at each crossing point so that trains choose the correct lane and wait if both lines are busy.

However there seems to be a problem with pre-signals; looking at the screenshot I've attached, the pre-signal is red even when both following pre-signals are green... Surely this isn't supposed to happen? I've also tried entrance signals instead of combos, and I've tried ditching the pre-signals altogether. All producing the same result...

Is this a bug or have I done something wrong?

jacke · Post by **jacke** » 31 Dec 2004 09:52

The pre-signal should be a one-way signal, that's the problem.

Drifting^^ · Post by **Drifting^^** » 31 Dec 2004 09:54

The train won't choose a line if I make it a one-way signal, it'll just goto the shortest route pathway

Archonix · Post by **Archonix** » 31 Dec 2004 10:01

I suspect the problem is that you're using the combo presignal for the start of a presignal block. Not sure though. Try using the normal presignal block starter instead.

Drifting^^ · Post by **Drifting^^** » 31 Dec 2004 10:10

Archonix wrote:I suspect the problem is that you're using the combo presignal for the start of a presignal block. Not sure though. Try using the normal presignal block starter instead.

Same thing happens

jacke's suggestion appears to work, although it shouldn't. Thanks anyway guys

Archonix · Post by **Archonix** » 31 Dec 2004 14:27

Oh, mixing things up. A pre-signal at the start of a needs to be a single. It's if you put single exit signals that the problems occur.

Tom_le_mort · Post by **Tom_le_mort** » 31 Dec 2004 18:07

How do you do these signals ? I just have one button for signals.

Bjarni · Post by **Bjarni** » 31 Dec 2004 23:55

Tom_le_mort wrote:How do you do these signals ? I just have one button for signals.

bring your control key to good use
use the signal tool and control click on a signal to switch between the states of presignals
control-click on a tile without signals will place semaphors (old signals)

Moriarty · Post by **Moriarty** » 01 Jan 2005 13:55

It strikes me that one-way signals are really rather complicated. regular one-way signals make it take the shortest route, whilst pre-signal one-way jobs make it do something entirely different. I wonder if it occured to the devs that maybe some people just want "normal" one way signals?

Jango · Post by **Jango** » 01 Jan 2005 15:05

there also happen to be those of us that can cope with the extra varieties. Without presignals, we wouldn't be able to have such an efficient network. They are the best thing since TTD.

Moriarty · Post by **Moriarty** » 01 Jan 2005 21:41

I'm not against pre-signals, and i'm not against "extra varieties". However the present system is not intuitive. I've seen at least two threads in the last 2 weeks asking the exact same question, because the expected behaviour (one-way signals are JUST one-way signals) is not the actual behaviour (they are also shortest route finder).
And when you consider that the number of new people coming to OTTD is almost certainly going to be low, i think we can consider that rather a large number of the newbies.

acidd_uk · Post by **acidd_uk** » 01 Jan 2005 22:01

I don't see why the one way signals need to be shortest route finders - why can't the pathfinding algorithm work in the same way for one-way signals as it currently does for 2-way signals?

Drifting^^ · Post by **Drifting^^** » 02 Jan 2005 01:33

I think the way that two way signals pass trains to clear routes, and one way pass trains to shortest route was just a botch up, instead of introducing a new concept. A better way to do it would has such a tool as a junction which allowed you to specify which direction trains traversed and why. For example, you could be able to click a junction (where 2 or more tracks meet) and a box would appear asking you to choose
* Trains branch off to first available clear track
* Trains take the shortest route, regardless of traffic
* Trains take the route determined by a weighting

Hmm dunno actually... it seems a little pointless trains taking the shortest route when you are always going to want a train to go down a clear track. I think acidd_uk is right when he says the route determining mechanism in 1 way signals should be the same as that in 2 way ones.

lucaspiller · Post by **lucaspiller** » 02 Jan 2005 09:02

The reason why one way signals are priority is because Chris Sawyer chose them to be like that so blame him.

The reason why pre-signals are so 'complicated' to use is because the TTDPatch team decided to do it like that so blame them.

Both systems were made many years ago and were found to be the best, I expect back then discussions were made for things to change but this is the best solution. Having a 'tool' to let you choose which signal is the priority signal may sound good if you are not used to the current system but it will waste time. Changing the signals over so double signals get the shortest route also wouldn't work because then you couldn't make the most common type of station where trains go in and out the same direction.

Let me remind you this is an open source game, if you don't like something change it and create a patch.

If you are still confused about (pre)signals check out the TTDPatch Wiki page on them: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... lsTutorial

Moriarty · Post by **Moriarty** » 02 Jan 2005 11:27

Lucas - Hmmm, i don't recall the original TTD doing that with one-way signals. I don't see why CS would have needlessly complicated the matter. It's not like any other part of the game has extra (hidden) complexity behind it. That would be very out of character.

As to doing it this way because that's how TTDP did it. Really bad logic. After all, who's to say they did it right? They certainly didn't keep the KISS premise.

The solution (IMHO) is to make one-way's behave the exact same way as two-ways (no shortest finding). I still can't actually figure out a use for one-way signals (that use the shortest route feature). And to my recall i've never seen an example of it either.

Tom_le_mort · Post by **Tom_le_mort** » 02 Jan 2005 12:28

Bjarni wrote:bring your control key to good use
use the signal tool and control click on a signal to switch between the states of presignals
control-click on a tile without signals will place semaphors (old signals)

Thanks a lot
I found alt click to swich to single way signals.

Observer · Post by **Observer** » 02 Jan 2005 18:08

I read the wiki about signals but I still dont get the oneway-twoway part... I have attached a picture to demonstrate my problem..

I have this one line on which trains like to go two way... so they have to wait for eachother...
But my lower presignal stays red even when the exit is green.

Can anyone explain this right?

[edit] I should attach a file

Observer · Post by **Observer** » 02 Jan 2005 18:15

I realy believe this is a bug, not a feature....

When I click one of the 'stuck' presignals three times.. to refresh it.. it suddenly works. BUT the upper signal is stuck now..

Observer · Post by **Observer** » 02 Jan 2005 18:23

As Im trying to work out a solution to my problem I come across more and more problems... even when I change my tracklayout.

[edit] I totally dont get why that signal is red in the pic below... everything around it is green.

Jump · Post by **Jump** » 02 Jan 2005 18:36

can you post your savegame please ?

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