George's Long vehicles V4 beta4 is out (07 sep 2007)

[krtaylor]

No, I have never used TTDAlter. I don't even have it on my computer. That's cheating.

[Snail]

It is written on the drawing. AU280FT - 4 doors, AS280FT - 3 doors. Where did you took whose drawings? May be you could take pages with weight, capacity there

True. Their correct names are displayed on the drawing: if you need a label to name them all, "Inbus series" could be fine. There's one more variant which might be cool to add, the S210. It's basically a U210 with two door less (the back one is missing and there's only one in the middle, just before the rear axle) and more seats (it's the suburban variant of the non-articulated version). I'll post a picture in the zipfile here. The sprite could be the same as the U210 with only two doors. That wouldn't be the only difference though. For the specs, read on.

On the U210 drawing it is specified capacity 102 (20+1+81), weigth 11.5.
Find weight and capacity for AS280FT, AU280FT, please
Also look for the specified speed for U210, AS280FT, AU280FT if possible.

I see what you mean, and I agree: it'd be cool to differentiate all the variants. Essentially, the name says it all: the A stands for "articulated", the U for "urban" and the S for "suburban". So basically I'd let the U210 and the AU280FT carry more passengers and load/unload them more quickly, while the S210 and the AS280FT would run faster (as they are those which hit the highways in reality) and possibly run better on hills in the game, although the real hp was the same in reality.
More specifically:
For the U210, I'd take the specified capacity you found in the drawing as good. Its max speed was 70.
For the AU280FT, I found the data: 31 seats + 149 standing + 1 = 181. Might seem A LOT, but that's what is written in the specs. Its max speed was 70 and its weight was 16120 kg.
For the S210, I found the data as well: it has 40 seats and 60 standing places. However, considering it was meant as a suburban bus, I don't think too many standing places could be allowed in the game, even in order to add some difference. Its max speed was 80.
For the AS280FT, I counted 57 seats on the drawing and there might be about 90 more standing. But for the same reason I'd let it carry fewer people than the AU280FT, and have a longer loading amount. Its max speed was 80.
The hp was the same for all four models (205).

Production for the non-articulated versions could be started around 1981 (first ones in Milan came actually in 1982, but there were some earlier ones in other cities) and could stop about ten years later. Historically, the articulated versions' production was shifted about three to four years later, like 1985-1994, as the new design was applied to non-articulated versions first. 16 to 17 years of life could do it: there are still a few of them running in some towns and they'll be replaced by newer Irisbuses in the next few years. Articulated versions are the only ones still being extensively used.

As for the liveries, all urban Inbuses I saw were orange, as buses have been painted that color for ages (since the late seventies). I occasionally saw other liveries to suburban ones (S210/AS280), usually blue, although orange dominated as well. There were companies which painted a colored stripe (about 15 centimeters thick) just below the windows, tho.


Now for the 421. I actually made a slight mistake, as the three door variant was called 421A, not 421AC. A generic label could be "Fiat 421 series". Anyway, it'd be nice if we could differentiate some variants of that bus, too. I was thinking about four of them, calling them after the bodywork type.
The 421AL SEAC is the Turin variant one which appears in the drawings (wide windows and single back window).
The 421AL Cameri is the one depicted in my earlier pictures and the paper model (narrow windows, double back window). It was the most widespread model.
The 421A Cameri is the same as the corresponding AL but is shorter and one of the central doors is missing.
The 421A BCF is the Milan variant of the 421A. It was one of my very first pictures. I think it'd be cool to put it to add variety. I have a drawing of this one and will be able to post it tomorrow, so that you can see the differences between the A and AL chassis' and actually draw them both.

Now, how to differentiate the variants. I think I already posted the A and AL's specs in a previous post of mine.
As for capacity, the difference you mentioned is due to the fact that my previous post was referring to the 421A Cameri, which was shorter and had a different seats displacement than the 421AL SEAC (the one in the drawings). So the numbers are about 101 for the A chassis and 118 for the AL chassis. As for starting dates, the Cameri bodyworks were the earlier versions. I'd release the 421A Cameri in 1973 and the AL a year later, which follows historical correctness. The 421A BCF could start in 1975 (was there a bit earlier in reality) and the 421AL SEAC could start in 1976 or 1977. The Cameri variants could be discontinued in 1980 and the other two around 1982 - 1983. To avoid merely replicating the specs, you could let the Cameri versions carry a few more passengers than the BCF / SEAC, while the later ones could benefit from a handful hp more to take slopes better, in order to simulate in some way the heavier importance given to security (less passengers) and the better engine performance as time and technology advance. This is not just pure guess, since I read that the 421AL SEAC had 240hp, while the others had 220. In TTD, we could give more power to the 421A BCF too to simulate a "second generation".
Also, since the windows' length was different, the 421AL SEAC's left side was kind of different from the Cameri's one. I attached a pic of that, too. It's a bit small, but I hope you can get the idea.

Concerning liveries, as I said buses here have been orange for ages. But until the late seventies they were all painted green. Unfortunately I couldn't find any pictures of a 421 painted green, but I did find a few of their cheaper, smaller siblings, the Fiat 418 also from the Seventies, so this might help you select which tone of green to use. All 421's I saw were orange, since the livery change happened around 1978 and I was a little bit too young at that time. Concerning the four variants:
The 421AL SEAC was always painted in company colors (green/orange);
The 421AL Cameri and 421A Cameri were either all green/orange or had a grey roof and lower part (depending on the companies: I attached a pic of an orange/grey bus so you can see it). In the late seventies, a few companies even used a deeper orange tone for the lower part and a sand tone for the upper part, in a two-color fashion, but those cases were rare. (pic)
The 421A BCF were green/orange with a grey roof. I sent you a model of it, and you can also find a pic at page 42 of this thread.

Of course, green/orange could be treated as yellow in your Mercedes bus...

There was also a doubledecker version of the 421, but limited to a protoype. I attached a pic of that too, but I doubt I'd be able to find any specs...

I hope I didn't leave anything out. Let me know what do you think about this, and feel free to ask if you need extra info / pics / specs. I'll send you the 421A BCF drawing tomorrow.

[George]

I re-checked my GRF file, and did some tests.
I DID have the tropicset in my CFG file, but it had the ! mark, so it shouldn't have made any difference. I un-checked it completely, and sure enough, it made no difference. So that wasn't the cause.
Then I worked through all the odd GRFs in my CFG, un-checking them one at a time. It made no difference. I didn't try it with the US set, any of George's long vehicles, or the standard stuff (slope-tracks, etc.)
I tried a reload of the vehicles. Still no difference.
It sounds like I should zip up my complete GRF folder and CFG file, for someone to try to test with this savegame, to see if they get the same effect.

Ok, I'll test. Send a archive with all the grf folder and configs

[krtaylor]

The forums won't let me upload it, it seems to be too large. 2.5MB. Can I email it to you?

[George]

The forums won't let me upload it, it seems to be too large. 2.5MB. Can I email it to you?

Yes

[George]

It is written on the drawing. AU280FT - 4 doors, AS280FT - 3 doors. Where did you took whose drawings? May be you could take pages with weight, capacity there

True. Their correct names are displayed on the drawing: if you need a label to name them all, "Inbus series" could be fine.

Bad name. It should be something like Inbus 2xx series then

There's one more variant which might be cool to add, the S210. It's basically a U210 with two door less (the back one is missing and there's only one in the middle, just before the rear axle) and more seats (it's the suburban variant of the non-articulated version). I'll post a picture in the zipfile here. The sprite could be the same as the U210 with only two doors. That wouldn't be the only difference though. For the specs, read on.

For now only capacity and the amount of loaded cargo can be changed, but in the future, I hope, we'd have more callbacks (weigth, speed, air res.)

2Josef: Hope you'll add more callbacks

On the U210 drawing it is specified capacity 102 (20+1+81), weigth 11.5.
Find weight and capacity for AS280FT, AU280FT, please
Also look for the specified speed for U210, AS280FT, AU280FT if possible.

I see what you mean, and I agree: it'd be cool to differentiate all the variants. Essentially, the name says it all: the A stands for "articulated", the U for "urban" and the S for "suburban". So basically I'd let the U210

Isn't it U210FT then?

and the AU280FT carry more passengers and load/unload them more quickly, while the S210 and the AS280FT would run faster (as they are those which hit the highways in reality) and possibly run better on hills in the game, although the real hp was the same in reality.

Yes, I plan it this way. For now I can make only capacity and amount of loaded cargo to be different, but adding new callback check, when implemented, is as easy as ABC

More specifically: For the U210, I'd take the specified capacity you found in the drawing as good. Its max speed was 70.
For the AU280FT, I found the data: 31 seats + 149 standing + 1 = 181. Might seem A LOT, but that's what is written in the specs. Its max speed was 70 and its weight was 16120 kg.

I think I should place people on the drawing and calculate the capacity myself

For the S210, I found the data as well: it has 40 seats and 60 standing places. However, considering it was meant as a suburban bus, I don't think too many standing places could be allowed in the game, even in order to add some difference. Its max speed was 80.
For the AS280FT, I counted 57 seats on the drawing and there might be about 90 more standing. But for the same reason I'd let it carry fewer people than the AU280FT, and have a longer loading amount. Its max speed was 80. The hp was the same for all four models (205).

Ok.

Production for the non-articulated versions could be started around 1981 (first ones in Milan came actually in 1982, but there were some earlier ones in other cities) and could stop about ten years later. Historically, the articulated versions' production was shifted about three to four years later, like 1985-1994, as the new design was applied to non-articulated versions first.

What is "new design"?

16 to 17 years of life could do it: there are still a few of them running in some towns and they'll be replaced by newer Irisbuses in the next few years. Articulated versions are the only ones still being extensively used.

I'll try to code it.

As for the liveries, all urban Inbuses I saw were orange, as buses have been painted that color for ages (since the late seventies). I occasionally saw other liveries to suburban ones (S210/AS280), usually blue,

Blue? Could you post some photos?

although orange dominated as well. There were companies which painted a colored stripe (about 15 centimeters thick) just below the windows, tho.

I'll think about it

Now for the 421. I actually made a slight mistake, as the three door variant was called 421A, not 421AC. A generic label could be "Fiat 421 series". Anyway, it'd be nice if we could differentiate some variants of that bus, too. I was thinking about four of them, calling them after the bodywork type.
The 421AL SEAC is the Turin variant one which appears in the drawings (wide windows and single back window).
The 421AL Cameri is the one depicted in my earlier pictures and the paper model (narrow windows, double back window). It was the most widespread model.
The 421A Cameri is the same as the corresponding AL but is shorter and one of the central doors is missing.
The 421A BCF is the Milan variant of the 421A. It was one of my very first pictures. I think it'd be cool to put it to add variety. I have a drawing of this one and will be able to post it tomorrow, so that you can see the differences between the A and AL chassis' and actually draw them both.

Ok

Now, how to differentiate the variants. I think I already posted the A and AL's specs in a previous post of mine.
As for capacity, the difference you mentioned is due to the fact that my previous post was referring to the 421A Cameri, which was shorter and had a different seats displacement than the 421AL SEAC (the one in the drawings). So the numbers are about 101 for the A chassis and 118 for the AL chassis.

could you specify seating/standing numbers?

As for starting dates, the Cameri bodyworks were the earlier versions. I'd release the 421A Cameri in 1973 and the AL a year later, which follows historical correctness. The 421A BCF could start in 1975 (was there a bit earlier in reality) and the 421AL SEAC could start in 1976 or 1977. The Cameri variants could be discontinued in 1980 and the other two around 1982 - 1983. To avoid merely replicating the specs, you could let the Cameri versions carry a few more passengers than the BCF / SEAC, while the later ones could benefit from a handful hp more to take slopes better, in order to simulate in some way the heavier importance given to security (less passengers) and the better engine performance as time and technology advance. This is not just pure guess, since I read that the 421AL SEAC had 240hp, while the others had 220. In TTD, we could give more power to the 421A BCF too to simulate a "second generation".

You mean 240 hp?

Also, since the windows' length was different, the 421AL SEAC's left side was kind of different from the Cameri's one. I attached a pic of that, too. It's a bit small, but I hope you can get the idea.
Concerning liveries, as I said buses here have been orange for ages. But until the late seventies they were all painted green. Unfortunately I couldn't find any pictures of a 421 painted green, but I did find a few of their cheaper, smaller siblings, the Fiat 418 also from the Seventies, so this might help you select which tone of green to use. All 421's I saw were orange, since the livery change happened around 1978 and I was a little bit too young at that time. Concerning the four variants:
The 421AL SEAC was always painted in company colors (green/orange);
The 421AL Cameri and 421A Cameri were either all green/orange or had a grey roof and lower part (depending on the companies: I attached a pic of an orange/grey bus so you can see it). In the late seventies, a few companies even used a deeper orange tone for the lower part and a sand tone for the upper part, in a two-color fashion, but those cases were rare. (pic) The 421A BCF were green/orange with a grey roof. I sent you a model of it, and you can also find a pic at page 42 of this thread.

Ok

Of course, green/orange could be treated as yellow in your Mercedes bus...There was also a doubledecker version of the 421, but limited to a protoype. I attached a pic of that too, but I doubt I'd be able to find any specs...

We shall not include it

I hope I didn't leave anything out. Let me know what do you think about this, and feel free to ask if you need extra info / pics / specs. I'll send you the 421A BCF drawing tomorrow.

Ok

[Snail]

Bad name. It should be something like Inbus 2xx series then

OK, it can be "Inbus 210/280 series" then. As for the 210 names, they were called "U210" and "S210" until the appearance of the articulated ones, in about 1984-1985. After that date, the AU280FT and AS280FT were introduced and some minor changes were implemented on the smaller versions, calling them U210FT and S210FT. Those changes included the interiors mostly and some minor stuff like the wipers' position, the back lights etc.

What is "new design"?

You'll find two pics in the zipfile, called "bredabus". In 1992 the firm producing the Inbus merged with another one and they redesigned the bus production. The new bodywork was implemented first in the smaller versions, and later in the articulated ones. I have specs for those, too, if you're interested. They even developed a quite succesful trolleybus out of the new articulated BredaBus (which was the firm's new name after the merger).

Blue? Could you post some photos?

Ok, I've added a pic of the I210, which is the interurban (coach) version. I couldn't find any pics of a blue S210FT or AS210FT, as they were rarer.
You'll notice a green stripe on that bus. And I'm sure a green stripe was on an AS280FT I posted here earlier. That's what I was referring to.

could you specify seating/standing numbers?

You mean for the 421AL Cameri and the 421A BCF? Ok, I'll see if I can collect some data.

In TTD, we could give more power to the 421A BCF too to simulate a "second generation".

You mean 240 hp?

Yes. It was true for the 421AL SEAC and it can be applied to the 421A BCF to add variety. There should be a window of time (say 1976-1980) in which all the four versions are produced together though, as they weren't replacements.

Hope you find the 421A BCF drawing useful. Since the chassis was the same, you can use it to draw the 421A Cameri too (the pics should help you locate the differences in the bodywork).

[Snail]

By the way, the Inbus was even produced in a smaller version, 8.2 meters long, called U150. Could be a cheaper, smaller-capacity bus for low traffic lines. I have some specs about it, want me to do some research?

[George]

By the way, the Inbus was even produced in a smaller version, 8.2 meters long, called U150. Could be a cheaper, smaller-capacity bus for low traffic lines. I have some specs about it, want me to do some research?

yes

[George]

Bad name. It should be something like Inbus 2xx series then

OK, it can be "Inbus 210/280 series" then. As for the 210 names, they were called "U210" and "S210" until the appearance of the articulated ones, in about 1984-1985. After that date, the AU280FT and AS280FT were introduced and some minor changes were implemented on the smaller versions, calling them U210FT and S210FT. Those changes included the interiors mostly and some minor stuff like the wipers' position, the back lights etc.

Ok

What is "new design"?

You'll find two pics in the zipfile, called "bredabus". In 1992 the firm producing the Inbus merged with another one and they redesigned the bus production. The new bodywork was implemented first in the smaller versions, and later in the articulated ones. I have specs for those, too, if you're interested. They even developed a quite succesful trolleybus out of the new articulated BredaBus (which was the firm's new name after the merger).

No. I don't like them

Blue? Could you post some photos?

Ok, I've added a pic of the I210, which is the interurban (coach) version. I couldn't find any pics of a blue S210FT or AS210FT, as they were rarer.
You'll notice a green stripe on that bus. And I'm sure a green stripe was on an AS280FT I posted here earlier. That's what I was referring to.

Ok

could you specify seating/standing numbers?

You mean for the 421AL Cameri and the 421A BCF? Ok, I'll see if I can collect some data.

In TTD, we could give more power to the 421A BCF too to simulate a "second generation".

You mean 240 hp?

Yes. It was true for the 421AL SEAC and it can be applied to the 421A BCF to add variety. There should be a window of time (say 1976-1980) in which all the four versions are produced together though, as they weren't replacements.

Ok

Hope you find the 421A BCF drawing useful. Since the chassis was the same, you can use it to draw the 421A Cameri too (the pics should help you locate the differences in the bodywork).

Yes, thank you. They are on the top of my TODO list now. Waiting for more info about capacity.

[Snail]

Ok, here you go with some details about capacities.

421A Cameri: 20 seats + 85 standing + 2
421AL Cameri: 21 seats + 96 standing + 2

I already posted the 421AL SEAC's capacity. As for the BCF, I think you can count the seats from the drawing (I can't open it right now) and as for the standing places it must be about the same as the 421A Cameri, since the chassis is the same.

A note about liveries. The 421A BCF was never painted green, sorry. It was one of the latest variants of the 421 so it was orange since the beginning. And the 421AL SEACs were cream red during the first years, then orange. So, only the two Cameri variants were painted green at the beginning. Since 1978 all new 421s were painted orange (sometimes with gray roofs, as I described earlier). For reality's sake, the last green Cameris were repainted in around 1986.

I hope I can be more specific about the articulated Inbus' capacities soon.

As for the U150, I collected some data.
Length: 8.26
Width: 2.3
Height: 3
Wheelbase: 4.34
Weight: 7800
HP: 148
Capacity: 14 seats + 66 standing + 1.

Its max speed should be around 65 since the engine was less powerful than the larger 210's. As for production years, the first ones were built in 1982 and I guess they were discontinued around 1990. However I think it'd be a good idea to discontinue them at the same time as the 210's.
The livery should be orange at all times. Sometimes it had a colored stripe, just like its larger siblings.

I see there aren't many small buses in your LongVehicles set. I have some info about a more modern small-sized bus, which is replacing the widely used U150 in these years. I can send you something about it if you like; I think it could be good to have a model to replace such a small bus when it becomes obsolete.

You'll find some pics about the U150 in the zipfile. Hope they can help you.

[Szappy]

A very good pages. They are enough to draw vehicles but it is hard to indentify characteristics because there no english versions. I'd like to ask you too find and translate me the missing charcateristics, Ok?

Of course, that's what I was thinking. You have to choose the ones to be included first, though.

I'd suggest including the 250 too, it's a very common type, with the 260.

It is a coach bus? I'd prefer to separate it from city buses. There are not enough callbacks now to make it useful

The 250 is typically an intercity bus, right.

Did you finally decide against the 293?

No. What made you to think so? I'm waiting for its info. There is also no info for it on that page.

Ah, OK. I just thought, because Colonel32 suggested against it, and you only spoke about the 260/280 in later posts.
Yes, the 293 is rare, and hard to find accurate info on it.
Howerver here's one:
http://buszok.freeweb.hu/ik293.htm
unfortunately it doesn't contain schematics.
dimensions: 22680x2500x2980 (LxWxH)
lenth between axles A-B: 5400, B-C: 6180, C-D: 6200
weight: 17800kg
capacity: 229 (no idea how many seating)
engine: Rába D 2156 MTU, 6 cylinder, inline, turbocharged diesel, 184kW
after 1992: MAN, 280 hp diesel engine, this is larger than the RÁBA, so the second door was moved to the front.
speed: 70 kph

The 286 was exported to America.

And what was the difference?

The main difference is the length (18,2m), the engine (CUMMINS NHHTC-290, 6 cylinder, inline, turbocharged diesel, 213kW), and the adjusted capacities (61 seat/46 standing).

On some of the pictures doors consit of 2 parts and on some they consist of 4 parts. Are this different models or it depends on the year of production? I think to draw these different doors, but I'd like to know dependences.

Yes, that only depends on the year built, it changed to the 2 part variant around 1985.

[Snail]

Just a couple of last-minute info... soz for the delay
421A BCF's capacity: 19 seats + 80 standing + 1.
And, the gray-roofed variant of the 421AL Cameri should have a single back window. Only the all-orange variants had it double.

Since you asked before, I'll attach some pics of a blue Inbus AS280Ft I just found.

[George]

The forums won't let me upload it, it seems to be too large. 2.5MB. Can I email it to you?

Your renaming of files played a bad trick with you. First of all, you have both the cut and not cut versions of long buses v3 in your file ENABLED! They use the same ID, that means it is impossible to manage them via grf window, only in the newgrf.cfg file. And because not cut version was renamed, you didn't find this error.

The problem happens because of usage of LV v3 files for alpha 30 and for alpha 39 at the same time. You have longcutbuses, opel, navistar for alpha 39, other files are for alpha 30. Files, that were designed for alpha 30, had normal cost (and running cost) factor, while designed for alpha 39 had a 8 times less cost factor and a total cost multiplier equal to 8 (that makes cost to take the same value). So, when you enable any file from alpha 39, costs for vehicles from files from alpha 30 become 8 times higher (as in your case with Mercedes trucks).

Decision
1) download the LATEST versions of files before COMPLAINING.
2) Do not change defaults (names) until you are sure in what are you doing. Otherwise, when you have problems, it is much harder for other people to help you

[krtaylor]

It also helps if new versions of things are reverse-compatible...

I don't see where there was more than one version of busses active, the original version was in there, true, but it had an ! to disable it except for reverse compatibility. Isn't that what the ! is supposed to do?

But anyway, I'll rip them all out and start over.

[Patchman]

The "!" only disables it by default when you start a new game. It may or may not be active in existing games, you have to check the grf status window. However, since it has the same GRFID as the newer version, you can't disable it on its own.

[krtaylor]

Aha.

[George]

It also helps if new versions of things are reverse-compatible...

They are. You can use files from previous alphas in the new alphas, but you will get bugs, that were fixed in the latest versions. You can also use the latest grf files with the old saves, but only which used the same main version (1,2,3). Changing the main version is a big step, making files incompatible. It was said many times and it was done as rare as possible. But LVs files are a PACKAGE, so, it is intended, that you do not mix files of a different time. You can download it once and use it as is, or you can use the latest versions. Both will work. But mixing of files is not intended, because on the new graphics page, it is written, what alpha you have to use for the latest files. And when this number is changed, it means, that if you want to download some of the new versions of a file, you have to download the whole package, because ALL the files require this version.
Resume: I don't see that LVs are not reverse-compatible. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

I don't see where there was more than one version of busses active, the original version was in there, true, but it had an ! to disable it except for reverse compatibility. Isn't that what the ! is supposed to do? But anyway, I'll rip them all out and start over.

You have to
1) update all the grf files
2) comment cut or not cut version of the buses in the newgrf.cfg
after that you can continue playing your save without any changing in it

[George]

The "!" only disables it by default when you start a new game. It may or may not be active in existing games, you have to check the grf status window. However, since it has the same GRFID as the newer version, you can't disable it on its own.

It is not the case of cut and not cut buses. They are not old and new versions of a file, they are files with alternative graphics. They have the same characteristics, IDs and data, that makes it possible to use ANY of them in ANY save. I mean if one player uses not cut version, the other can use the same save having cut graphics and and vice versa.
Krtaylor simply became involved in his files

But the problem of tropic set is more interesting. It affects only running cost, but not the cost. Could you look it in?

[Snail]

Hi George!

I found a drawing of the Inbus S150, which shows its data, too, together with a couple of models of the U150 (urban variant) and the S150 (suburban variant). I hope they can help you draw the model, it'd be cool to add it to the Inbus pack so that we'd get three sizes of them (as they were in reality).

Although the drawing is written in Italian, most of the data is the same as for the U150, which I posted earlier. Tell me if you need any translations.

As for the livery, it followed the larger Inbus' scheme. Orange all times for the U150, mostly orange for the S150 (rarely blue), sometimes colored stripe.