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Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 03:49
by George
How should new cargoes, which are transported in open trucks (flat bed, drop side truck or a dumper), look like?

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 06:19
by andythenorth
George wrote:How should new cargoes, which are transported in open trucks (flat bed, drop side truck or a dumper), look like?
As maquinista has found (in the release thread), graphics for FIRS cargos are going to be an issue for a lot of set authors. Here are the issues as I see them:

1. It's a lot of work to add cargo graphics to sets. For each HEQS dump truck I have to add 3 new sets of sprites per cargo (3 loading states), with 8 angles per vehicle. Mostly I can just use 'replace colour', but it's a hassle. Then I have to do the nfo as well...

2. What should new cargos look like? What does fruit and veg look like? Scrap metal?

Some possible answers:

- use tarpaulins or other covers on open vehicles, hiding the cargo. I use this in HEQS for some vehicles. Saves drawing and code.
- use recolor sprites in nfo. This can be a lot of work when 2CC is used. Could one coder work out the nfo for recoloring to FIRS cargos so that set authors can all reuse it?
- draw some reference graphics for FIRS cargos which all set authors can use as a base. I might do that, but anyone else would be welcome to make suggestions...

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 06:51
by planetmaker
In the lack of existing cargo sprites, there's the cargo icons already done by FooBar though. They're a good guideline, I think:
png of the cargoicons of FIRS
png of the cargoicons of FIRS
cargoicons.png (2.63 KiB) Viewed 2721 times
Enjoy and kudos to andy and FooBar who work really A LOT on this set.

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 07:57
by Eddi
andythenorth wrote: - use recolor sprites in nfo. This can be a lot of work when 2CC is used. Could one coder work out the nfo for recoloring to FIRS cargos so that set authors can all reuse it?
afair the GermanRV Set uses that method, you could ask Uwe about how it is done

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 17:22
by George
andythenorth wrote:
George wrote:How should new cargoes, which are transported in open trucks (flat bed, drop side truck or a dumper), look like?
As maquinista has found (in the release thread), graphics for FIRS cargos are going to be an issue for a lot of set authors.
As soon as we decide how should it look like, they can be provided by one author and reused by others. So, I suggest FIRS devs create a topic to discuss it. In the topic there should be a list of new cargoes.
andythenorth wrote:Here are the issues as I see them: 1. It's a lot of work to add cargo graphics to sets. For each HEQS dump truck I have to add 3 new sets of sprites per cargo (3 loading states), with 8 angles per vehicle. Mostly I can just use 'replace colour', but it's a hassle. Then I have to do the nfo as well...
It is up to any author not to provide new graphics
andythenorth wrote:2. What should new cargos look like?
This is a question to discuss
andythenorth wrote:What does fruit and veg look like?
Boxes with fruit?
andythenorth wrote:Scrap metal?
Lake parts of steel, but more dirty?
andythenorth wrote:- use tarpaulins or other covers on open vehicles, hiding the cargo.
This is the last solution to use
andythenorth wrote:- use recolor sprites in nfo. This can be a lot of work when 2CC is used. Could one coder work out the nfo for recoloring to FIRS cargos so that set authors can all reuse it?
Me doubts
andythenorth wrote:- draw some reference graphics for FIRS cargos which all set authors can use as a base. I might do that, but anyone else would be welcome to make suggestions...
This is the right point :D First thing we need is the list of cargoes to draw.

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 17:28
by George
TTD
  • Coal
    Iron Ore
    Oil
    Steel
    Livestock
    Fruit and Vegetables
    Grain
    Sugar Cane (Toyland) ?
    Food
    Goods
    Water
    Wood
    Passengers
    Mail
ECS
  • Sand
    Fish
    Lumber
    Chemicals
    Fuel Oil (Petrol)
    Wool
PBI
  • Gravel
FIRS
  • Bauxite
    Aluminium
    Milk
    Survey Supplies
    Farm Supplies
    Engineering Supplies (Vehicles?)
    Scrap Metal
    Parts
    Packaging
    Cotton (Fibre crops?)
    Waste
Correct?

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 17:32
by George
Bauxite - like ore?
Aluminium - like steel?
Milk - like rubber?
Survey Supplies - ?
Farm Supplies - Harvesters?
Engineering Supplies - Tractors?
Scrap Metal - Steel parts?
Parts - in boxes?
Packaging - like boxes?
Cotton (Fibre crops?) - ?
Waste - dirt like (fertilizer like?) with objects inside?

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 17:55
by Cudar
Bauxite is the aluminium ore: Al(OH)3.

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 18:02
by maquinista
I have downloaded the second FIRS released file. There is a bug when a brewery is built inside of a town. In other locations, it works fine.

Some weeks ago, I made some sprites for Spain set trains, for cooper, bauxite and sand. They have been made replacing the colors of the pixels. What do You think?

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 02 Jul 2009 19:10
by andythenorth
Rather a lot of waste points in this town :D
rather_a_lot_of_waste_points.png
rather_a_lot_of_waste_points.png (241.42 KiB) Viewed 2480 times
I haven't checked the specs, but with some incredibly baroque nfo, I think we might be able to check for surrounding houses and connect waste production to that. I don't think we should. But possibly we could :twisted:

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 03 Jul 2009 00:09
by OzTrans
A quick word (and suggestion) on the graphic set ID for FIRS ...

We, as set coders, like to auto-detect other sets in order to support them. As graphic set IDs can change over time for a multitude of reasons, the following scheme does help to still support other sets without an updated release of our own set.

Consider a version digit as part of the graphic set ID; like 0xaaaaaaav, where ...

aa aa aa a = is your graphic set ID (7 digits); it can be anything, it's your choice, but should be unique among all graphic sets naturally.
v = version ID, starting with '1'; you can then bump up the version digit, if necessary. Don't use '0' and you have a range from '1' through to 'F' available.

Other sets can then auto-detect FIRS using a bit mask and it won't be necessary to update these sets too in case FIRS felt it was necessary to change its own ID.

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 03 Jul 2009 08:29
by Eddi
George wrote: Survey Supplies - ?
Farm Supplies - Harvesters?
Engineering Supplies - Tractors?
i believe these should be all kinds of machinery. survey supplies could be digging or boring machines, farm supplies could be tractors and harvesters, engineering supplies could be bulldozers or other machines
Packaging - like boxes?
i'd say rather like paper (in big rolls)

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 03 Jul 2009 08:36
by planetmaker
OzTransLtd wrote:We, as set coders, like to auto-detect other sets in order to support them. As graphic set IDs can change over time for a multitude of reasons, the following scheme does help to still support other sets without an updated release of our own set.(...)
Hm, shouldn't the whole last byte be the version of this newgrf according the the NewGRF wiki?
NewGRF wiki wrote:This is a series of 4 bytes. It's a convention to use the first two bytes for the creator's initials in ASCII code, e.g. 54 57 for "TW". The last two bytes should be numbers, typically the first number identifying which of the author's sets this is, and the second number being a version number.
Sure enough, usually 15 versions for a single newgrf should be enough for the whole lifetime, but...

EDIT: fixed quotation

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 03 Jul 2009 08:39
by Roujin
planetmaker wrote: Sure enough, usually 15 versions for a single newgrf should be enough for the whole lifetime, but...
... better be safe than sorry, no? ;)
32 bit was also enough for long time... :P

Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

Posted: 03 Jul 2009 09:42
by FooBar
Massive replies here... :D
George wrote:Sugar Cane (Toyland) ?
In our case the sugar cane is the plant and not the sugar itself. Otherwise the list seems quite correct indeed.
George wrote:
    Bauxite - like ore indeed, just a different colour
    Aluminium - I drew it as sheeting on a roll, but it can be virtually anything.
    Milk - more like water me thinks
    Survey Supplies - can be anything; some covered wagons would work best here.
    Farm Supplies - again, can be anything from fertilizer to tractors. covered wagons?
    Engineering Supplies - same, from the smallest nuts and bolts to heavy equipment
    Scrap Metal - all kinds of metal parts of irregular shapes. Very hard to draw, see my cargo icon...
    Parts - can be anything, most likely in boxes indeed. I think parts like to stay dry so we might want to add that property to the cargo classes of this cargo
    Packaging - cardboard boxes, wooden crates, glass containers, etc.
    Cotton (Fibre crops?) - those white thingies. Likes to stay dry as well.
    Waste - for health reasons transported in closed containers. The ACTS system is very nice for rail transport. For road transportation you have ofcourse your regular garbage trucks. The waste itself looks like this. Again very hard to draw.
    maquinista wrote:There is a bug when a brewery is built inside of a town.
    Savegame please.
    andythenorth wrote:Rather a lot of waste points in this town
    Interesting. I did set the probability to FF as I wanted one in every town (default TTD maximum probability is F)... I think I've overdone it...
    OzTransLtd wrote:A quick word (and suggestion) on the graphic set ID
    I agree with planetmaker on masking out the complete last byte and not only the last nibble. The specifications don't recommend the last byte as versioning byte for nothing I guess...

    So you'd have aa aa ss vv. With aa aa the author's id, ss the set's id and vv the set's version.

    Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

    Posted: 03 Jul 2009 12:43
    by el koeno
    Perhaps some cargoes (e.g. the various types of supplies and packaging) could simply be transported in generic wagons: in containers, or covered with tarpaulins. I'm not sure if this is desirable, or possible, but it would make it easier on set designers, right?

    BTW: Cotton is generally transported in bales I think.

    Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

    Posted: 03 Jul 2009 14:10
    by planetmaker
    el koeno wrote:Perhaps some cargoes (e.g. the various types of supplies and packaging) could simply be transported in generic wagons: in containers, or covered with tarpaulins. I'm not sure if this is desirable, or possible, but it would make it easier on set designers, right?
    A set designer always has this choice. Actually that's something a set designer usually does at least also additionally in order to cover cargo definitions which are not yet present (via the cargo classes) or in order to just save drawing work.

    Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

    Posted: 03 Jul 2009 14:30
    by maquinista
    This is the wagons for waste. I have drawn it before the FooBar's suggestion about waste wagons.

    I think that it could be covered/sheltered freight (200) and bulk (10). This would allow waste only in covered wagons.

    Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

    Posted: 03 Jul 2009 14:54
    by planetmaker
    Would waste really need to go in covered wagons? I honestly doubt the need for that...

    Re: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

    Posted: 03 Jul 2009 15:58
    by colossal404
    Transport waste with garbage truck :D