Transport Tycoon Forums

So what does that mean? That the discussion of what music format we're going to use is open again..?

-lucas- wrote:So what does that mean? That the discussion of what music format we're going to use is open again..?

Yes... in the same way the 32bpp 'zoomed graphics' project is going. Constantly changing the requirements and dropping all graphics and starting from scratch again; this has been going on for 5 years now. There has been ONE stable 32bpp format for 2.5 years now, yet apparantly it isn't good enough because it isn't zoomed in.

Given that there have been a number of attempts to implement ogg/mp3/whatever music playing capability into OpenTTD I fear it is going the same way as the 32bpp project. That is: nowhere.

Do not forget that the MIDI files are in the order of 100 times smaller than their equivalent MP3. Having to download 100 MB of MP3 during installing OpenTTD or just 1 MB really makes a difference. Assuming you have 31 songs of ~3 minutes each.

Rubidium wrote:Yes... in the same way the 32bpp 'zoomed graphics' project is going. Constantly changing the requirements and dropping all graphics and starting from scratch again; this has been going on for 5 years now. There has been ONE stable 32bpp format for 2.5 years now, yet apparantly it isn't good enough because it isn't zoomed in.

Huh? Since I picked up the zoomed in patch, because the 'official' branch was dropped (it did not work correctly for scrolling etc.), I do not remember any changes in requirements in the patch that rendered all graphics useless, and forced starting from scratch again. So I'm not sure what you mean here. Only changes I remember were on the trunk side, renumbering sprite numbers in the grf's but you cannot hold that against the patch and the tars that need to follow that.

I'm not saying that it is the implementation of 32bpp zoom graphics is the cause of the requirement changes. It's just that over the time I've seen numerous massive trashings of sprites that were put on the wiki for one reason or another.

-lucas- wrote:So what does that mean? That the discussion of what music format we're going to use is open again..?

Here is what I suggest. We make a midi replacement pack no matter what, that can be shipped with openttd. After all, openttd is supposed to bring back the feel of TTD, and bring on the nostalgia. Having a music pack with it I think is important. And besides, we don't know how long the upgraded music player will be.

When/If the music player is upgraded to play other music formats, people can use their own music and make their own playlists (.m3u format i'm guessing).We could also make high quality mp3's out of the midi replacements at a later date (using VSTs) and maybe implement that as a special download for OTTD (because of the size of the download).

Jvlomax - I 100% agree.
I'm not against using mp3 at all, i just think we should stick to what has been decided earlier - that being MIDI.
Like you said, we could always MP3-ize them later, though it is not as easy as it might sound to non musicians.
So programmers etc: please understand that it's a different process and that we need to change quite a few things in MIDI files to make them sound good as MP3 files.

So do we all agree to just stick to MIDI for now, for all the reasons jvlomax just mentioned?

I can easily make the midi sound sound really good using garritan orchestra/Jazz in finale finally a real use for all my music software

Well, it would probably be a good idea to continue this project as a MIDI-based project, but in the future, we could always have alternative, higher quality versions using Vorbis/MP3. The problem with MIDI is that the quality can vary so much depending on the synthesizer used... whereas somebody with the appropriate software can create a finely-tuned MP3 of the music that sounds much better. And of course supporting MIDI on some systems is a pain anyway (eg, OS/2, which has no software synthesizer and very poor support for MIDI hardware on modern sound cards).

As for the size, sampled audio will of course always be bigger than standard audio. But just as nobody is forced to download OpenSFX or OpenGFX, high quality music packs can always be optional downloads - and people can choose to use the MIDIs if they prefer, or nothing at all.

Anyway, after failed attempts in the past, I am very much insistent that this version is going to actually be acceptable. So we shall see how it goes.

Thar

orudge wrote:Well, it would probably be a good idea to continue this project as a MIDI-based project, but in the future, we could always have alternative, higher quality versions using Vorbis/MP3. The problem with MIDI is that the quality can vary so much depending on the synthesizer used... whereas somebody with the appropriate software can create a finely-tuned MP3 of the music that sounds much better. And of course supporting MIDI on some systems is a pain anyway (eg, OS/2, which has no software synthesizer and very poor support for MIDI hardware on modern sound cards).

That's what I was thinking. I'll post an example mp3/vorbis/FLAC/anyformat where I use VSTs on a midi file tomorrow. I would think it could easily be used for systems who don't have good midi support as a substitute. If we reduce the bitrate on the files, we could save some space too, without sounding worse than what the midifiles. But as you say, i think it should be optional like OpenGFX and openSFX

-lucas- wrote:So what does that mean? That the discussion of what music format we're going to use is open again..?

Unless Owen can get the software developed, debugged, and submitted and included in the next beta release, then no. One of my goals for the Music Replacement Project is to develop it using what is available with the current 1.0.0-beta-1 release. As was mentioned above there's no reason to drag this project out for 2-3 years while we wait for coding in the software to catch up.

orudge wrote:Well, it would probably be a good idea to continue this project as a MIDI-based project, but in the future, we could always have alternative, higher quality versions using Vorbis/MP3. The problem with MIDI is that the quality can vary so much depending on the synthesizer used... whereas somebody with the appropriate software can create a finely-tuned MP3 of the music that sounds much better.

Yep, indeed! I'm looking forward to the day when we can bust the music wide-open with a player that supports MIDI, OGG, MP3 whatever. And if it won't play MIDI and we want to convert over to another format, somebody can do that (or, even I can do that, even).

orudge wrote:Anyway, after failed attempts in the past, I am very much insistent that this version is going to actually be acceptable. So we shall see how it goes.

Good luck! Glad to see somebody taking this part of the project by the reins!

kamnet wrote:Yep, indeed! I'm looking forward to the day when we can bust the music wide-open with a player that supports MIDI, OGG, MP3 whatever. And if it won't play MIDI and we want to convert over to another format, somebody can do that (or, even I can do that, even).

OpenTTD will always support MIDI, even with my new work.

jvlomax wrote:Thar

orudge wrote:Well, it would probably be a good idea to continue this project as a MIDI-based project, but in the future, we could always have alternative, higher quality versions using Vorbis/MP3. The problem with MIDI is that the quality can vary so much depending on the synthesizer used... whereas somebody with the appropriate software can create a finely-tuned MP3 of the music that sounds much better. And of course supporting MIDI on some systems is a pain anyway (eg, OS/2, which has no software synthesizer and very poor support for MIDI hardware on modern sound cards).

That's what I was thinking. I'll post an example mp3/vorbis/FLAC/anyformat where I use VSTs on a midi file tomorrow. I would think it could easily be used for systems who don't have good midi support as a substitute. If we reduce the bitrate on the files, we could save some space too, without sounding worse than what the midifiles. But as you say, i think it should be optional like OpenGFX and openSFX

Well, that was kind of what i meant when i said that creating an mp3 is not just playing it through a vst: it will just sound like a midi file played through a vsti. Virtual orchestrating is so much more than that - so using the same (general) midi file for both midi and mp3 versions will just sound meh, imho.

Rubidium wrote: Do not forget that the MIDI files are in the order of 100 times smaller than their equivalent MP3. Having to download 100 MB of MP3 during installing OpenTTD or just 1 MB really makes a difference. Assuming you have 31 songs of ~3 minutes each.

orudge wrote:Well, it would probably be a good idea to continue this project as a MIDI-based project, but in the future, we could always have alternative, higher quality versions using Vorbis/MP3. The problem with MIDI is that the quality can vary so much depending on the synthesizer used... whereas somebody with the appropriate software can create a finely-tuned MP3 of the music that sounds much better. And of course supporting MIDI on some systems is a pain anyway (eg, OS/2, which has no software synthesizer and very poor support for MIDI hardware on modern sound cards).)

I propose a different route: modules (.mod, .xm, .it, etc). The format is quite similar to MIDI but also stores the instruments as wav samples so it will always sound identical no matter what hardware is used.
I saw quite a few module players on sourceforge with GPL license (ex: xmp) that could be used as a base (the module decoding code).

The module size depends mainly on the quality and number of samples and will rarely be more that 10 times the MIDI equivalent.

Another advantage would be the lower requirements to play back the files (less cpu intensive than mp3/vorbis). MIDI files can easily be converted to modules using OpenMPT (tracker to create/edit modules).

coyoteelabs wrote: I propose a different route: modules (.mod, .xm, .it, etc). The format is quite similar to MIDI but also stores the instruments as wav samples so it will always sound identical no matter what hardware is used.
I saw quite a few module players on sourceforge with GPL license (ex: xmp) that could be used as a base (the module decoding code).
The module size depends mainly on the quality and number of samples and will rarely be more that 10 times the MIDI equivalent.
Another advantage would be the lower requirements to play back the files (less cpu intensive than mp3/vorbis). MIDI files can easily be converted to modules using OpenMPT (tracker to create/edit modules).

Guys...
I'd like to start composing.

MOD will sound not nearly as good as mp3 with the added disadvantage of not being able to sound like the original music either.
I don't really understand how everything is being made as close as the original game as possible, and this seems to have to be some kind of open mic platform.

coyoteelabs wrote:I propose a different route: modules (.mod, .xm, .it, etc). The format is quite similar to MIDI but also stores the instruments as wav samples so it will always sound identical no matter what hardware is used.

A major problem with the format I see is that it's like AVI: it's a container. Some are using raw wav, some are using ogg, some are using mp3, some are using an abstract representation of the sound for the samples.

So which of the formats to choose? I've got no idea which one if the most popular, but if it's the one using mp3/ogg compressed samples then it's worse w.r.t. external dependencies than supporting just plain mp3/ogg.

Also I would rather offload the running of music to the OS than having to implement that too in OpenTTD. Especially because MOD seems to be somewhat timing critical; you have to keep track of at which millisecond in the music you are, which isn't something OpenTTD does right now.

Most recent module playing libraries that I'm familiar with tend to support "all" of the popular formats (MOD, XM, IT, S3M, pretty much). It's something that could be integrated into my new patch as a file format without too much bother, but it's not something I have planned at present. I agree that modules would be a fairly decent trade-off between file size and quality compared to MIDI vs MP3/Vorbis, although they are somewhat more complex to build, of course, and do have various limitations.

orudge wrote:Most recent module playing libraries that I'm familiar with tend to support "all" of the popular formats (MOD, XM, IT, S3M, pretty much). It's something that could be integrated into my new patch as a file format without too much bother, but it's not something I have planned at present. I agree that modules would be a fairly decent trade-off between file size and quality compared to MIDI vs MP3/Vorbis, although they are somewhat more complex to build, of course, and do have various limitations.

Please don't forget the fact that you have to own the right of the samples you're using. So while in theory it will sound much better, in practice you are still severely limited to the copyright free samples you can find. I have invested about 3000 euros of samples that i can use in mp3 but not in MOD because that's against their terms of usage.

- You can't use commercial sample libraries, severely limiting the sound pallette you can use
- Many mod files are small in size because they use low sample rates (< 22 khz) and very short loops.
- Another way MODS are kept small is by using the same sample for many different pitches and velocities
- You can't make them in normal midi and audio sequencer software like midi files and regular audio tracks
- It's nothing like produced mp3 or wav music because you can't use (high quality) dsp effects
- There has been a ruling about MIDI files being protected by copyright the same way as normal audio files, can't find anything about MOD
- Afaik, midi has a much better resolution (timewise) than MOD, at least than when i used to make mods a long time ago. So try making a snare drum roll like the one used in the intro of the original Transport Tycoon intro
- ...

Well, I'm not advocating modules over anything else, just stating that technically it would be possible to support them if there was sufficient demand.

-lucas- wrote:Guys... I'd like to start composing.

Go ahead! It appears to me that those who have their hands in the code have stated that MIDI will continue to be supported, there's no reason to delay except your own time and schedule.

orudge wrote:Well, I'm not advocating modules over anything else, just stating that technically it would be possible to support them if there was sufficient demand.

Ok, then i misunderstood

I am used to the 'choose what you're going to use and then stick to it' approach to avoid the point where you never get a finished product because a group of people cannot decide what the 'main platform' is going to be. I was kind of worried that we would get that situation with all these different file formats. If we stick to midi for the initial batches, how limited it might be, we should be fine when it comes to recreating the original sound and having ways to actually get it working ingame and have it always be working in future updates