SerbianRailSet(ECS,PBI,FIRS&TouristSet compatible)&scenario

[michael blunck]

http://www.gyermekvasut.hu/image/012-931.jpg

Hey! That would have been an interesting entry for our "guess the train game".


[OT]

BTW, Faur (ex-Uzinele, ex-Malaxa) diesels are quite interesting, but very rare over here in Germany. Nevertheless, two smaller Faur diesels ( L18H, 25665 and 25666, built 1990) are with the railway of the German island of Wangerooge. These were originally built for VEB Mansfeld Kombinat "Wilhelm Pieck", "August-Bebel" iron and steel works, Helbra, East-Germany.

Those were the swansong of the glory days of Hungarian loco-manufacturing. And later, around 1990 manufacturing stopped completely.

On a different note also Ikarus is gone now.

Yeah, it would be interesting to trace the concentration process of European locomotive building leading to just two survivors, Bombardier and Siemens ... Alone the fate of once famous German locomotive builders like Krauss, Maffei, Henschel, Schwartzkopff, Borsig, Orenstein&Koppel, Hartmann, Esslingen, Hanomag, Jung, Vulcan, ..., would add a good part to it.

regards
Michael

[Wile E. Coyote]

And now, time is for

New Hotfix: 16.07.2008.

- Accurate data for MAVAG 17 and 126 steamers. Thanx Nagyzee, and welcome to team!
- Fixed crash for "Leteci Beogradjanin". Strange that I haven't noticed it till now.
- Changed manufacturer for L45H diesel.

Enjoy!

[Nagyzee]

Thank you, it was a pleasure to help.

Unfortunately I'm blind and yesterday I overlooked that both the famous 424 (MAVAG 11) and the 375 (MAVAG 51) are in, too. I'm especially delighted about the 424. Oh, boy. Can't wait to play with it.

And also the Ganz Mavag 641 (M44 at MÁV) is in there. And I can help out with an additional info there, too.
Its starting tractive effort is 166,5 kN according to the Hungarian Wiki:
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81V_M44

And if I linked the others, here are the Wiki pages of the 424 and 375 too:
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81V_424
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81V_375
375 also has one in German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81V_Baureihe_375

Of course I can help translating if you need any data from them.

Though these data can be quite contradicting because of the different series and modifications.
For example according to Hungarian Wiki horsepower of the 424 (MAVAG 11) was 2000 HP, though the loco had 4 series out of which two were made after WW2, so this data might not be representative for the Yugoslavian locos.
Also according to http://blakszta00.uw.hu/gozmoci/adatok/424.htm the first series of 424 (MAVAG 11) had 89,78 kN tractive effort calculated from adhesive weight, while the second series had 91,82 kN. The problem is that while the other Hungarian locos (except for the MAVAG 51) already have this kind of tractive effort calculated, others seem to have a more nominal one so to say. (Or not, but for me it's a bit hard to imagine that for example Berliner Machinenbau 06 had double the tractive effort of a MAVAG 11, though I'm not an expert, this is just a gut feeling.)
Btw according to German Wiki, tractive effort of 375 (MAVAG 51) was 61 kN.
And according to Hungarian Wiki 375 (MAVAG 51) had 500 kW power but then again this loco was in production from 1907 till 1959 (!!) and the construction and thus parameters changed several times. In a book of mine there is a bit more data though: the first generations of this loco had 410 kW power. Probably this is the case for the SHS/Yugoslavian ones as well.

[michael blunck]

Though these data can be quite contradicting because of the different series and modifications.

Yes. When in that situation I always choose the engine of that particular date, i.e. when there´s a type_1 in 1922 and a type_2 in 1927 of the same locomotive, I´ll use data for type_1 when introducing it in 1922, and o/c, I´ll use data for type_2 when introducing it in 1927. Simple.

For example according to Hungarian Wiki [...] 424 (MAVAG 11) had 89,78 kN tractive effort calculated from adhesive weight, while the second series had 91,82 kN. The problem is that while the other Hungarian locos (except for the MAVAG 51) already have this kind of tractive effort calculated, others seem to have a more nominal one so to say. (Or not, but for me it's a bit hard to imagine that for example Berliner Machinenbau 06 had double the tractive effort of a MAVAG 11, though I'm not an expert, this is just a gut feeling.)

We´re able to calculate tractive effort for every steam locomotive. All we need is the correct engine.

Btw according to German Wiki, tractive effort of 375 (MAVAG 51) was 61 kN.
And according to Hungarian Wiki 375 (MAVAG 51) had 500 kW power but then again this loco was in production from 1907 till 1959 (!!) and the construction and thus parameters changed several times.

Some of the locomotive stats may be changed by the set´s .grf during game time by using a callback, e.g. speed.

regards
Michael

[Wile E. Coyote]

Well, it seems there will be more modifications. Good thing is that set becomes more and more realistic.
This is very nice discussion here, I enjoy to follow it. Obviously we got one more live encyclopedia as set contributor.

[Nagyzee]

We´re able to calculate tractive effort for every steam locomotive. All we need is the correct engine.

My bad. That 90 kN just seemed quite low for the 424, which was the most successful (universal) main line loco of MÁV. Also the 601 (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81V-Baureihe_601) had only 150 kN tractive effort while it was a huge loco designed for a mountainous mainline. HP: 2360.

On the other hand German locos in this set, and also locos in the DB Set XL have significantly higher max. tractive effort in general. For example the little BR75 has 100 kN, the BR38 140 kN, and the BR85 280 kN.

What makes Hungarian locos having generally so much lower tractive effort?

Well, it seems there will be more modifications. Good thing is that set becomes more and more realistic.
This is very nice discussion here, I enjoy to follow it. Obviously we got one more live encyclopedia as set contributor.

Thanks, but I'm very far from that. To be able to help you I intensively used Wikipedia and 1-2 books of mine.

[michael blunck]

That 90 kN just seemed quite low for the 424, which was the most successful (universal) main line loco of MÁV. Also the 601 [...] had only 150 kN tractive effort while it was a huge loco designed for a mountainous mainline.

Well, that´s wrong.

According to my calculations, the 424 had a max tractive effort of 156 kN, and the 601 had 249 kN:


MAVAG 424

d = 1606 mm -> 1.606 m (driving wheel diameter)
D = 600 mm -> 0.6 m, D² = 0.36 m² (cylinder area)
S = 660 mm -> 0.66 m (cylinder stroke)
p = 13 atm -> 1317225.312 N/m² (boiler pressure)
Wadh = 57 t (adhesive weight)

TE = 0.8 * p * D² * S / d
TE = 0.8 * 1317225.312 * 0.36 * 0.66 / 1.606
TE = 250378.18730496 / 1.606 -> 156 kN

TE_max = 57 t * 9.81 m/s² * [0.25 ... 0.3 ... 0.33] -> [140 ... 167 ... 184] kN


MAVAG 601

This one is a four-cylinder engine, hence:

TE = (2 * 0.85 * p * D_hp² * S) / (D_hp²/D_lp² +1) * d

d = 1440 mm -> 1.44 m
Dhp = 520 mm -> 0.52 m, Dhp² = 0.2704 m² (hp cylinder area)
Dlp = 850 mm -> 0.85 m, Dlp² = 0.7225 m² (lp cylinder area)
S = 660 mm -> 0.66 m
p = 16 atm -> 1621200.384 N/m²

TE = (2 * 0.85 * 1621200.384 * 0.2704 * 0.66) / (0.2704 / 0.7225 +1) * 1.44
TE = (491854.04) / 1.9728 -> 249 kN

TE_max = 94.7 t * 9.81 m/s² * [0.25 ... 0.3 ... 0.33] -> [232 ... 278 ... 306] kN

Both engine´s TE values lie well inside the possible zone of transferable force, although more to the lower end, i.e. these engines are slightly "weak", in comparison to their weight.

However, the numbers on that Wiki seem to be wrong.

regards
Michael

[Nagyzee]

Good to know. It seems I'll have to visit a library if I want to dig more into this. Unfortunately I couldn't find other sources about their tractive efforts on the internet yet and my book doesn't provide them either.

Thanks for the calculations.


I hope at least the numbers provided for the other locos (MAVAG 17 and MAVAG 126) were good on the Wikipedia.

[michael blunck]

I couldn't find other sources about their tractive efforts on the internet yet and my book doesn't provide them either.

Hehe, what I said:

[tractive effort] is unfortunately missing from locomotive descriptions most of the time, be them derived from the internet or even from railway books.
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=585909#p585909

I hope at least the numbers provided for the other locos (MAVAG 17 and MAVAG 126) were good on the Wikipedia.

Well, you could check those numbers yourself. All the needed data for Hungarian steamers is available.

regards
Michael

[Nagyzee]

I'll calculate them tomorrow. The MAVAG 126 (IIIq / 325) will be an interesting one as it had two cylinders of different sizes. 485 for high pressure cylinder and 700 for low pressure one. What should I do there? Take the average, I guess...

[michael blunck]

The MAVAG 126 (IIIq / 325) will be an interesting one as it had two cylinders of different sizes. 485 for high pressure cylinder and 700 for low pressure one. What should I do there? Take the average, I guess...

Not quite.

It´s a compound engine and needs to be calculated similar to the 601 in my post above, i.e. differentiating between hp and lp cylinders, by using the ratio.

regards
Michael

[Wile E. Coyote]

I collected all data in one place, please both of you check them. I especially doubt that power is calculated good, because data for power are missing for most steamers, so I tried to calculate power (as you know, determination of steamers power requires complicated equipment, but Yugoslav railways didn't have it).

Code: Select all

Locomotive         Speed (km/h)        Power (hp)    Weight (loco+tender) (t)     TE (kN)

BMAG 01                   90              1063                 116                  115
BMAG 01 "LB"             146              1063                 116                  115
BMAG 05                  100              1444                 159                  156
BMAG 06                   80              1440                 161                  212
MAVAG 11                  90              2000                 142,6                156
MAVAG 17                  90               987                  71                   67,7
Borsig 30                 65              2660                 166                  192
H&S 33                    80              2035                 144                  220
MAVAG 51                  60               550                  54                   61
H&S 61                    45               665                  36                   72
MAVAG 126                 60               482                  76,5                 80,32
Ganz-Mavag 641            80               600                  62                  166,5

I couldn't find weight of "Leteci Beogradjanin"'s aerodynamic shield, so I put same weight as loco without it (I know it doesn't make sence, but...).

MAVAG 11 was purchased after WW2 for Tito's "Blue train", so data for that series could be representative.

[Nagyzee]

It´s a compound engine and needs to be calculated similar to the 601 in my post above, i.e. differentiating between hp and lp cylinders, by using the ratio.

regards
Michael

Ok, I have done it that way. I only removed the 2* multiplier from the beginning of the formula as the MAVAG 126 had only two cylinders. Hope this was the correct way to do it:

TE = (0.85 * p * D_hp² * S) / (D_hp²/D_lp² +1) * d

d = 1440 mm -> 1.44 m
Dhp = 485 mm -> 0.485 m, Dhp² = 0.235225 m²
Dlp = 700 mm -> 0.7 m, Dlp² = 0.49 m²
S = 650 mm -> 0.65 m
p = 13 atm -> 1317225.312 N/m²
Wadh = 42.5 t

TE = (0.85 * 1317225.312 * 0.235225 * 0.65) / (0.235225 / 0.49 +1) * 1.44
TE = 171188.99 / 2.1313 = 80,32 kN

Though this is lower than what your other formula should suggest as lower boundary:
TE_max = 42,5 * 9.81 m/s² * 0.25 = 104,23 kN

Hope, it's not a problem.


PS: For 601 German Wiki gives 16 bar, Hungarian 15 bar, and the data page you linked 15 atm as boiler pressure. Luckily the loco is not included in the set though.

I collected all data in one place, please both of you check them. I especially doubt that power is calculated good, because data for power are missing for most steamers, so I tried to calculate power (as you know, determination of steamers power requires complicated equipment, but Yugoslav railways didn't have it).

Code: Select all

Locomotive         Speed (km/h)        Power (hp)    Weight (loco+tender) (t)     TE (kN)

MAVAG 126                 60               482                  76,5                 66,71

According to the Wiki page, the power data for MAV 126 is: 482 kW = 655 LE. I hope they are right about that at least.
And if I didn't make any mistakes during calculation, TE should be 80,32 kN.

I'll calculate the other one soon as well.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Check powers aswell. I'll put all corrected data in table above.

[Nagyzee]

Code: Select all

Locomotive         Speed (km/h)        Power (hp)    Weight (loco+tender) (t)     TE (kN)

MAVAG 11                  90              1560                 144                  156

MAVAG 11 was purchased after WW2 for Tito's "Blue train", so data for that series could be representative.

For this loco I have the following data:
Power according to Wiki: 2000 HP
According to my book: close to 1500 kW with good quality coal
These two data correspond quite well to each other.


Weight:
According to Wiki: 85,1 t + 57,5 t = 142,6 t
According to my book though its weight without tender was 86 t.

Though according to another source I found 85,1 t weight was the characteristic of the 2nd series built 1942-1944. Probably this is the version, Yugoslavian Railways had. (3rd series was in construction in the 50s.)


I've also checked the diesel loco (Ganz-Mavag 641) in my book. Max. speed, weight and power data are correct there. (The book has no information on TE, so I couldn't double-check it.)

[Wile E. Coyote]

Put in table.

[michael blunck]

TE = 171188.99 / 2.1313 = 80,32 kN

Though this is lower than what your other formula should suggest as lower boundary:
TE_max = 42,5 * 9.81 m/s² * 0.25 = 104,23 kN

Hope, it's not a problem.

No. It just shows that for an adhesive weight of 42.5 tons (and µ=0.25), max tractive effort would be limited to 104 kN (by friction). Alas, hence that engine isn´t able to develop a net tractive effort of more than 80 kN, this is also the max tractive effort.

For 601 German Wiki gives 16 bar, Hungarian 15 bar, and the data page you linked 15 atm as boiler pressure.

1 atm = 1,0133 bar, so that shouldn´t be a problem.

regards
Michael

[Nagyzee]

So was my calculation correct? Great.

With the 601 there is a difference between the German Wiki (says 16) and the other two sources (they say 15) as atm can be converted to bar basically 1:1.

[michael blunck]

With the 601 there is a difference between the German Wiki (says 16) and the other two sources (they say 15) as atm can be converted to bar basically 1:1.

As I can´t figure out who put that number on the German Wiki, I´m attempted to believe into the Hungarian. Especially because JDH Smith says the same, and I´ve never found a bug in one of the locomotive stats there.

Other than this, the difference isn´t that important.

regards
Michael

[Wile E. Coyote]

I released new Hotfix:

18.07.2008.

- Added all accurate data we collected till now;
- Added more historical facts.

Enjoy!