Transport Tycoon Forums

New Hotfix: 10.06.2006.
- All steamers (including narrow gauge) are animated now. Please tell your opinions about NG steamers animation.
- Visible cargos for narrow gauge are redrawn by George.
Enjoy!

18.06.2006. Not a Hotfix, but some changes:
- Scenarios are edited a little (some errors in cities, and added signs with rivers names);
- Due to new possibility in Patch 2.5.6, alignment in depots or train lists (32 pixs instead of 29) is good, and you have no glitches with long wagons (it's allready coded, so you don't have to download set again if you have 10.06.2006. Hotfix);
Enjoy!
EDIT: No comments about narrow gauge steamers animation? I hope that means it's looking good!

Looks good

I'm glad you like it I was affraid how will look like animation on little steamers. Of course, suggestions are allways welcome!

New Hotfix: 19.06.2006.
- New power calculating (with powered wagons) for dual-headed MUs ("Aluminijumski voz", "Beovoz" and Ganz-Mavag 811-816).
- Fixed error in refittable amount of livestock and food for Freight car Gkks (now it's 12 instead of 16, which was bigger than bigger wagon Gbs-z, which has 14).
- Fixed errors in scenarios (V0.6).
Enjoy!

New Hotfix: 26.06.2006.
- New power calculating (with powered wagons) for narrow gauge DMUs.
- Fixed error in NG DMUs allignment (incredible, but true: I haven't spotted error till today, when I tested powered wagons values! ).
- Added check for separate EMU 680 GRF; if it's enabled, set fails to load (set contains this EMU allready, but IDs are different. If you enable both GRFs, you obtain two same EMUs).
Enjoy!

New Hotfix: 10.07.2006.
- Steel and paper cargos in SG set are redrawn by George.
- Goods containers in SG set are in various colours.
- "Pendolino" is tilting in curves.
Enjoy!

I look these are great sets!

It's good to see more fixes and tweaks that keep making this set better and better. It's a long time since I played using the Serb set and the latest version I just tried has lots of nice new things. I have some questions and requests though.

There are no 125mph mail vans? It would be nice to have a mail van that can match the speed of the fastest passenger wagons. (I know I can have *very* fast mail using the Pendolino - but it seems a bit sad not to have a fast mail van for locomotive-pulled services.)

Didn't the freight wagons used to have speed limits? Maybe I am not remembering but it also seems odd to have speed limits for passengers and mail but not for freight.

I hope more liveries are added over time to goods and other freight wagons. The current wagons look great but freight trains can look a little boring after a while, especially when compared to all the colourful passenger and mail wagons.

Additional weights for 'MUs seem strange. In some cases they add a lot of weight in addition to the normal weight of the added car, which makes the train very heavy (more heavy than it should?). In other cases the additional weight seems to replace the given weight of the added car. I haven't checked every MU at all closely but it seems inconsistent - and some 'MUs - even with just 2 added passenger carriages - are now so heavy they have a hard time getting close to speed even on the flat.

The fruit load graphics for playing in the tropical climate are great. (Just a small thing but I like it very much.)

EDIT: I didn't like the tilting effect of the Pendolino at first but now I have come to like it. A nice touch.

Keep up the great work.

Thanx for your positive and very constructive comments!

It'd be nice if you provide more information about slow accelerating for MUs. If "Sinobus" and FIAT are accelerating slowly, it's OK; they are old MUs (from 1950s era) and they are low-powered, espetially "Sinobus". Same for NG DMUs. If newer MUs are slowly accelerating ("Beovoz" or GANZ-MAVAG), it's problem; I'll try to correct this error. All added weights are additional weights for wagons, not instead of original weight. It's not possible to replace original wagon weights AFAIK (please, correct me if I'm wrong).

You're absolutely right about small amount of freight wagon liveries; that's reason because some various visible cargos are added; goods containers in various colours, steel drums and boards etc. Now one wagon has one cargo, but for all wagons cargos are looking different. Fixing this problem for closed freight wagons would be more difficult, but it's situation near to reality: in Serbia you can really see train which contains 40 same Gbs or Eas wagons; with tankers is slightly different situation, we have two big oil companies ("Jugopetrol" - yellow livery and "Beopetrol" - blue livery), and there are randomized liveries for tankers in game. Anyway, I'll see in future what to do. Probably there will be some changing liveries during time; I've noticed new liveries for "Sinobus", "Beovoz" and Traction-Union loco IRL; probably there will be new liveries for wagons also.

I'm glad you like fruit graphics. There are apples and plums (two most produced fruits in Serbia); ECS fruit plantations are containing apple and plum trees too, in some of next Hotfixes (I hope there'll be no lots of them in future) there will be support for ECS, and there'll be full effect of new graphics. (Of course, there is new fruit plantation for set too, but it's not animated, not changing during year etc.)

Mail vans are hotfixed now (really strange, but I haven't noticed that there is no mail van for 200 km/h ). As you probably noticed, there are 5 wagons generations: for 100, 120, 140, 160 and 200 km/h. That's problem with freight wagons: there are simply not enough generations for them, and that's reason I haven't set speed limits for them. In real, maximum speed is for allmost all 4-axle freight wagons 120 or 140 km/h, and that would be really odd for game. (I must notice here that railroads in Serbia are in very bad condition; we have wagons designed for 200 km/h, but we don't have railroads supporting that speed. )

So, let's introduce

New Hotfix: 10.07.2006.
- Mail vans speed limits are fixed; now you have 5 generations.
- Fixed cargo errors for locomotives which don't carry cargos in purchase list, now capacities are "N/A", not "N/A (refittable)".
Enjoy!

Wile E. Coyote wrote:... Fixing this problem for closed freight wagons would be more difficult, but it's situation near to reality: in Serbia you can really see train which contains 40 same Gbs or Eas wagons; with tankers is slightly different situation, we have two big oil companies ("Jugopetrol" - yellow livery and "Beopetrol" - blue livery), and there are randomized liveries for tankers in game.

Ah, OK. I can see that it'd be unrealistic to make different liveries for closed freight wagons then. I did not realise this.

Related suggestion: In Temperate climate, is it possible to add the cargo refit "Goods" to Oil Tankers then? In Temperate, I think it is somewhat rare to use Oil Tankers for oil much, because most oil is produced from Oil Rigs in the sea, and transported to Refineries by ship. But it would be nice to have the goods produced by Refineries (in the real world most of which would be petroleum - which is liquid) transportable by refitted Oil Tankers. This would add graphical variety and the "Oil" Tankers would be appropriate for a liquid "Goods" type, yes?

As you probably noticed, there are 5 wagons generations: for 100, 120, 140, 160 and 200 km/h. That's problem with freight wagons: there are simply not enough generations for them, and that's reason I haven't set speed limits for them. In real, maximum speed is for allmost all 4-axle freight wagons 120 or 140 km/h, and that would be really odd for game.

I don't think this is so. Having speed limits for passengers/mail but not for freight seems more odd - to me. You work hard to make the set realistic so why not have slower freight? Often in games people make separate tracks/routes for (slower) freight and (faster) passenger service, I think. Not always, but in cases where this is a lot of traffic in a portion of the network people will make separate tracks there. That is quite realistic, and other sets reflect the difference in maximum speeds for passengers vs freight. I think if a person does not like to play the game with separate speed limits for passengers and freight, then they do not have to: they just turn off "wagonspeedlimits". (This is all just my opinion though. )

I will do a proper examination of the 'MUs issues when I get time and get back to you some better data.

Re: the freight wagon speed.

Bear in mind that the only thing that this part of the set depends on is your wish for it to be realistic.

I can see both the realistic and gameplay side to this - of course if someone would rather not build a seperate line then they have slower freight among their express passenger trains.

But on the realism side, freight trains are generally slower not because of wagon speed limits (though this obviously is an issue as well) but because they're longer and much heavier - and the locos chosen to reflect these characteristics are built far more towards power than speed. I've seen freight trains coming through Stourbridge Junction faster than a through Chiltern Express train.

If you look at the realistic side, you're only going to use your fastest locomotives for the best (and thus high-speed) freight wagons. A hypothetical example in Britain is the class 92 (90mph electric) - they don't often haul the slow steel wagons - these consists are left to the 65mph class 60s or 66s. The 92s are saved for the cross country runs on the West and East Coast Mainline, as well as through the Channel Tunnel where their high speed is reflected in the quality of the wagons used (generally the newer and thus quicker wagons).

HaroldV wrote:Related suggestion: In Temperate climate, is it possible to add the cargo refit "Goods" to Oil Tankers then? In Temperate, I think it is somewhat rare to use Oil Tankers for oil much, because most oil is produced from Oil Rigs in the sea, and transported to Refineries by ship. But it would be nice to have the goods produced by Refineries (in the real world most of which would be petroleum - which is liquid) transportable by refitted Oil Tankers. This would add graphical variety and the "Oil" Tankers would be appropriate for a liquid "Goods" type, yes?

There is something like that in ECS: it's cargo "Petrol", produced by refineries. So, you must wait for Hotfix compatible with ECS (I must note that I was working with George on compatibility with his Newcargospetroltourists, but that's abandoned now.)

HaroldV wrote:I don't think this is so. Having speed limits for passengers/mail but not for freight seems more odd - to me. You work hard to make the set realistic so why not have slower freight? Often in games people make separate tracks/routes for (slower) freight and (faster) passenger service, I think. Not always, but in cases where this is a lot of traffic in a portion of the network people will make separate tracks there. That is quite realistic, and other sets reflect the difference in maximum speeds for passengers vs freight. I think if a person does not like to play the game with separate speed limits for passengers and freight, then they do not have to: they just turn off "wagonspeedlimits". (This is all just my opinion though. )

OK, I'll see what to do. Maybe to adjust gamespeed via parameter? (Altough I agree with Dave; he gave good example for reason avoiding speed limits for freight wagons. Same situation is in Serbia: you have both freight and passenger trains on same railroads.)

HaroldV wrote:I will do a proper examination of the 'MUs issues when I get time and get back to you some better data.

OK, I'm waiting.

Wile E. Coyote wrote: re: Oil Tanker refitting: ... There is something like that in ECS: it's cargo "Petrol", produced by refineries. So, you must wait for Hotfix compatible with ECS

Haha. Good old ECS. OK, we'll wait. Although it would be very nice to have that simple refit option for the default Temperate industries too, for people less interested in using new industries but craving a little bit more graphical variety for their freight networks.

Wile E. Coyote wrote:re: speed limits: OK, I'll see what to do. Maybe to adjust gamespeed via parameter? (Altough I agree with Dave; he gave good example for reason avoiding speed limits for freight wagons. Same situation is in Serbia: you have both freight and passenger trains on same railroads.)

I understand, but still disagree. The patch itself has options if a player does not wish to "suffer" realism and can turn wagonspeedlimits off (and tweak curves, mountains, cheat costs, construction costs, etc, etc as they see fit). I don't think you need to go to any sort of extra trouble to accomodate the desire to play a less realistic, simpler game, because that want is already taken care of by patch features. I would prefer you went to the trouble ( ) of applying what you think are the most realistic specifications to all elements of the set (speed limits for passengers but not for freight strikes me as so odd - but that is probably just me).

HaroldV wrote:I will do a proper examination of the 'MUs issues when I get time and get back to you some better data.

Wile E. Coyote wrote:OK, I'm waiting.

Right, from some quick testing ...

For these quick tests all I did was add a single Am Passenger Car to the purchased MU. I used the Am because it has an unladen weight of 40t which made the arithmetic simpler, and is an average weight for passenger cars in the set. At the bottom is a list of total (unladen) weights.

The odd one out is the Macosa which does not add additional weight (although it's description says it does).

I appreciate that the earlier 'MUs are not supposed to be particularly powerful, however I have a hard time coming to grips with the combined weights in some cases, particularly with the TE of even some the later units - TE values which I am sure are realistic, but not in accord with the actual weights generated by the set at present, which are not realistic, because they are (very roughly speaking) doubled.

For example, the modern Pendolino, made up in a full 7-car unit, has an unladen weight that can exceed a significant proportion of fully loaded freight trains, and even with a final power output of 3850hp, its (otherwise perfectly realistic) TE of 498kN, compared to its total weight, means it is a surprisingly sluggish modern "express" train.

I found it extremely strange that adding a single passenger car generally actually adds (approximately) twice its weight. For example - adding a 40t car to the Fiat 813 adds 96t (an extraordinarily heavy passenger car!). Others are not so extreme (e.g. the Ganz-Mavag) but the "cost" of the added weight is significant.

A primary example of the effect of weight differences can be seen in comparing the Ganz-Mavag (diesel, introduced 1974) and the Beovoz (electric, introduced 1981). The Ganz-Mavag is less powerful, has lower TE, and a fractionally lower top speed (and is cheaper to run) than the Beovoz, but performs far better simply because the difference between weights (124t vs 202t, in the MU+1Am tests) is so significant for (relatively) low-powered vehicles.

(I cannot stress strongly enough the points of the previous two paragraphs without starting to sound like a coffee-fuelled lunatic.)

Perhaps the Am passenger car is not the best test case to use for every example, but its weight of 40t is an average one out of all the carriages available (37-42t, with one exception) and the most common weight of passenger carriage (40t is both median and mode, mathematically speaking). The exception is the old Baat passenger carriage, which can hold almost as many passengers as the Am (52 vs 60) but weighs a mere 15t. While I can see the Baat as a good and appropriate choice of added carriage for some of the early MUs, needing to use an ancient carriage to achieve reasonable performance from the Pendolino is very strange indeed.

Personal opinions: It may be wise to reconsider how added weight is handled in these MUs. From the point of view of realism, perhaps it is best to retain the automatically added weights (as they are appropriately, realistically scaled to each 'MU model) but use only those "added" weights while completely ignoring the base weight of the added car. In other words, added weight replaces combined weight, and removes the fundamental problem of added cars adding approximately twice the weight they should. I assume this is possible in the patch - it might not be. If it isn't, I think in all (or nearly all?) cases the added weights should be scaled back, the exact amount each is reduced by depending upon how well (or badly ) each 'MU is supposed to perform.

I hope this has been helpful.

Here's the list:

* = opinions/observations. NB: When I use the term "performance" I do not take into account the MU's top speed much, but rather the ability of the MU to reach that speed relative to its running costs. Older MUs are given more leeway in this regard because they are meant to suck.

DD 812-818 "Sinobus" (15t; adds 15 for each added car)
+1 Am Passenger Car (40t unladen)
=70t (15+15+40)
* a pretty bad performer, but using a Baat car may be more appropriate than an Am car anyway. Using a Baat drops the total weight to 45t.

Fiat 813 (56t; adds 56 for each added car)
+1 Am PC
=152t (56+56+40)
* awfully heavy for its power rating, even taking in account it being an older MU. But the TE isn't too bad, and it can do an OK job with a Baat attached instead of an Am.

ZZR 611-616 "Aluminijumski" (64t - 2 car unit; adds 32 for each added car)
+1 Am PC
=136t (64+32+40)
* not so bad as far as weight alone goes, but the power rating is low relative to overall weight. Used in consists of even numbers (because of the way +hp is applied to every second car) this MU struggles.

Ganz-Mavag 811-816 (56t - 2 car unit; adds 28 for each added car)
+1 Am PC
=124t (56+28+40)
* lowish base and added weight means this is the best performer by far, despite limited TE/hp.

Macosa 712 (77t; [supposed to] add 77 for each added car)
+1 Am PC
=117t (77+40; the "+77t" is not added)
* doesn't work as advertised, but that's just as well; if the +77t worked then a single passenger car would actually add a huge 117t, which is simply ridiculous.

RVR 412-416 "Beovoz" (108t - 2 car unit; adds 54 for each added car)
+1 Am PC
=202t (108+54+40)
* not bad, but still the added weight is still high enough that the older, supposedly "weaker" Ganz-Mavag outperforms it.

Fiat Pendolino (55t; adds 30 for each added car)
+1 Am PC
=125t (55+30+40) (475t for a full 7-car unit)
* the "reduced" added weight is appreciated, but the totals still add up in a full 7-car set to make this a somewhat "sluggish" fast-express train. Is it cheating to use 6 antiquated Baat cars instead of 6 Am cars to get this train to a sensible weight?

HaroldV, thank you very much for your testing!

New Hotfix: 04.08.2006.
- Weights of MUs are corrected to obtain more realistic acceleration.
Enjoy!

You're welcome, Wile.

Time to start a new SerbSet game methinks.

HaroldV, do you have some idea to propose maximum speeds for freight wagons?

In meantime, problems with wrong GRF version are fixed due to Patchman's great work. Note that you must load this set after base sprites, because in other case you can't have nice allignment of wagons in trains list.

So, let's introduce
New Hotfix: 15.08.2006.
- Fixed error in coding, now is set compatible with Patch 2.5.8.
Enjoy!

Wile E. Coyote wrote:In meantime, problems with wrong GRF version are fixed due to Patchman's great work. Note that you must load this set after base sprites, because in other case you can't have nice allignment of wagons in trains list.

Hmm, if it only works after the base sprites you're still not doing it right. Did you use the example code from the wiki? That should work no matter where you put your grf in the list.

I put this: And I have 32 pixels lenght vehicles in depot only when I first load base GRF (otherwise it don't reports error, but lenght is 29 pixels).
Also I saw strange GRF Codec behaviour: \D| is coded wrong; I had to put 08 in code.

That's the correct code. Are you sure it's ttdpbase.grf that's resetting the 28/32px bit and not some other grf?

It shouldn't be ttdpbase, since I have no problems with grfs coded by me or Pikka that use it.
And I have ttdpbase loaded (although no entry in my newgrfw.cfg)...

~ Lakie