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I think much of Michael's Vehicles depend too much on each others, so it would be difficult to replace single vehicles. And he already stated long time ago that he wouldn't reall like it, if another set "messes up" his set And not to forget: Many colours of his vehicles visually don't match the real colours ...

@OzTransLtd: Nice! But I suggest not to include the Thalys or other trains. It's just a train of the SNCF that crosses the german border. Like the IC trains from ÖBB (Austrian trains even go through cologne!) or PKP or any other neighbour railway direction do. That's like an ICE in the NL Set The Veh-ID's could better be used for other german vehicles.

The concept of AutoZug is cool, but we would have a problem when implementing it in TTD: What should they carry? There are two solutions:
1. The car transporters are just wagon overrides in IC trains with two engines (2 x 216 would be an realistic example) and therefore carry passengers, like the rest of the train.
2. An thing earlier discussed here; replace mail with luggage and replace valuables with mail (banks -> mail centers), the car transporters would act as heavy luggage wagons.
I like both ways The latter one had the nice effect, that luggage cars could be used - they would make no sense otherwise. Just like security wagons, because valuables have no special wagons in Germany.

As a developer of the first "german railway" set for the patch, the DB Set (XL), I´d like to add my 2cc to the discussion.

First of all: I surely don´t want to spoil other people´s fun in making their own train set, everybody has the right to work on whatever he/she likes.

However, having read through the posts, I have similar subjects as Ken (and I have even more).


- "is it really worth the effort?"

That´s a conflicting question. Possibly yes, because working on anything for "the patch" is defined as "valuable", the question remains if there would be better ways to add value to the patch than working on a topic which has been considerably dealt with.

Ken also adresses the issue of an "interface" for gaining access to specific vehicles of a foreign vehicle set.

This question has been discussed extensively over the last year but there hasn´t been much progress. Nevertheless, it´s on my to-do list since a long time. I plan to implement such an interface in the DB set to enable use of DB set trains from other sets, e.g. from my own "alpine set" or enabling usage of the ICE-3 by the NS set. However, that´s not a trivial task, because it doesn´t simply address veh-ID usage for locos, but the whole "train compilation" has to be preserved. In addition, using additional vehicles from different sets doesn´t cancel the veh-ID limitation, on the contrary!

Nevertheless, there will be some form of an interface in the near future.


Now let´s proceed towards the more subtle questions raised.

- "I would like to see an extensive range of international trains."

This will be addressed automatically when such an interface will be available, e.g. the "alpine set" will add some international trains running from Netherlands/Germany to Switzerland/Italy. There have been also plans to include the "Thalys" into the DBXL (it´s running in Germany and the DB owns three of them). Although the graphics are available, it hasn´t been done yet because of game-balancing issues.

- "CityNightLiners"/TEN will be in v0.82 of the DBXL now that passenger-passenger refitting is possible. Although it doesn´t add to the "game", I´ve been requested to allow refitting to "sleepers" from quite a number of people during the last months.

- "Rolling Motorway" (RoLa) is already an element of the "alpine set" and will be accessible from the DBXL as soon as we´ll have that new interface.

- "Push-Pull" trains aren´t possible ATM. Nevertheless, as soon as the patch makes it available, it´ll be implemented in the DBXL (and the alpine set). This has been "on the list" for quite a long time.

- "Making the set compatible with temperate and arctic climates."

There´s already a version of the DBXL operating in the (arctic based) "pseudo-alpine" climate, the "DB Set XLA"

- "Vehicles should be concentrated on Epoch 3/4 time frame. Although we, of course, will need a limited number of early/late model vehicles too, so that the game can be played from 1921 maybe 1930 or a bit later onwards."

This is a very ambitious issue. IMO, this isn´t possible because for an early start you´ll need a good base of early material and hence there will be a lack of IDs if the emphasis of the set should be the 70s. It´s not only enthusiasm for the very early DRG stock which lead to more and more early locos in the DBXL, but simply requirements of the game.

- "Have no time restriction applied to vehicle liveries; ie leave it to the player to choose the livery they like, even if it has been superceeded by a new livery."

That´s an original feature of the DB set since it´s first version.

- " using seperate MU-Wagon in Purchase Window".

That approach will use up additional veh-IDs. It´d be better to use "var. liveries" resp. "wagonoverride" to spare IDs.

- "I have listed everything, why we want to have the 'Deutsche Bahn' Trainset developed".

Many of these points are resp. will be addressed by the DBXL if there´s any sense in implementing it. However, you didn´t address the original aim of this set once called the "DB passenger set". Which had been set up to include a multitude of DMUs and EMUs found missing in the DBXL.

That was a qualified proposal, because not many of those DMUs/EMUs will be implemented in future DBXL versions, simply because of game-balancing reasons. However, skipping the whole freight sector to have more IDs available for passenger trains could have been an interesting approach for a special kind of game and it could technically work.

But your new project is both more ambitious and more wide-spread as that original approach and will unavoidably end up in a very similar set as the DBXL.

Which again rises the question whether such an enormous amount of work has to be spend a second time?

I don´t know.

In any case there will be further developments of the DBXL which I hope you won´t think are "imitating" your ideas (just let me point out that silly "S-Bahn" accusation), e.g. the next version will contain

- some additional (early) locos,
- additional EMUs,
- additional liveries for the VT-137,
- additional train sets like "Ruhrschnellverkehr" and "Metropolitan",
- refitting possibility to "sleepers" (TEN)
- and a couple of other things.

@Saskia:

Saskia wrote: Many colours of [Michael's] vehicles visually don't match the real colours ...

I presume that´s your hobby-horse?

regards
Michael

michael blunck wrote:However, you didn´t address the original aim of this set once called the "DB passenger set". Which had been set up to include a multitude of DMUs and EMUs found missing in the DBXL.

That was a qualified proposal, because not many of those DMUs/EMUs will be implemented in future DBXL versions, simply because of game-balancing reasons. However, skipping the whole freight sector to have more IDs available for passenger trains could have been an interesting approach for a special kind of game and it could technically work.

I would certainly be interested in seeing a "passenger only" set now that you can start a game with no industries and also control town growth so much better.

Making it so that sets work together would be a great innovation! I do understand that you still have the problem of the total number of IDs, so for instance, the US set wouldn't work very will with others since it uses almost all of them.

cornelius wrote:

michael blunck wrote:However, you didn´t address the original aim of this set once called the "DB passenger set". Which had been set up to include a multitude of DMUs and EMUs found missing in the DBXL.

That was a qualified proposal, because not many of those DMUs/EMUs will be implemented in future DBXL versions, simply because of game-balancing reasons. However, skipping the whole freight sector to have more IDs available for passenger trains could have been an interesting approach for a special kind of game and it could technically work.

I would certainly be interested in seeing a "passenger only" set now that you can start a game with no industries and also control town growth so much better.

I do that quite often, either with DBSetXL or the USSet. Ill quite often make a scenario (Just ask DanMacK), or start a random map with no industries. I like running passenger only routes, a dedicated passenger set sounds promising.

The problem with a passenger-only game is that the game isn't really designed for that - you can't grow cities, or keep them large, without providing them with food/goods.

krtaylor wrote:Making it so that sets work together would be a great innovation! I do understand that you still have the problem of the total number of IDs, so for instance, the US set wouldn't work very will with others since it uses almost all of them.

Same with the DBXL which has only some 12 free IDs. Exactly that´s the point were the need for an "interface" comes into play.

Besides, that´s the weak point with the new proposal for the DB Passenger Set - you´d need an unproportional large number of veh-IDs for the Transrapid vehicles (twice: for monorail and maglev) and for freight wagons because of the "wagonspeedlimits" feature.

regards
Michael

Adding more ids (aka 255 for each vehicle type) is long time on my list but to much stuff really depends on extact memory locations, TTD code and even more TTDPatch Action code...

michael blunck wrote: Besides, that´s the weak point with the new proposal for the DB Passenger Set - you´d need an unproportional large number of veh-IDs for the Transrapid vehicles (twice: for monorail and maglev)

Why? Can't you tell what the maglev/monorail setting is, and put it in the right place? I think that's how the Japanset works with the Shinkansen tracks.

Saskia wrote: Many colours of [Michael's] vehicles visually don't match the real colours ...

Well, sometimes it's hard to pick the real colour since that colour isn't in the palette...

It could be so simple: a passenger set with a small number of cargo carriages For example:
- a tanker, refittable for gas, oil (oil) or gasoline, diesel, chemicals, milk, sawdust (goods)
- a bulk cargo car for coal or ore or [some grain types like wheat, different colours] (grain)
- a flat bed car for trees, lumber (wood) or machine parts, cars, trucks, boxes, transformers (goods) or sheet metal coils, cable coils, machine parts, girders (steel) or ...
- ...
So a wide spectrum of cargo cars could be implemented with only few veh-IDs's.

Purno wrote:Well, sometimes it's hard to pick the real colour since that colour isn't in the palette...

And sometimes the chosen colour is close to the value of the original colour, but looks totally different on the screen due to visual effects that are descibed in every screen designer's handbook In this case the colour should be chosen by optical appearance on the sprites, not by value. And that's not that much difficult

@Michael: Sorry, but a very large part of your writings here, especially the post from Sa Apr 30, 2005 10:44 am, reads like propaganda

krtaylor wrote:The problem with a passenger-only game is that the game isn't really designed for that - you can't grow cities, or keep them large, without providing them with food/goods.

Just crank the town growth settings right up and they do a pretty good job by themselves.

Yes, but that requires extensive fiddling with some rather complicated and obscure Patch settings, and most people are not likely to do that.

Of course, it would be nice if we did not have to reinvent the wheel, ie redraw/code vehicles, that already exist in other sets, especially same country sets. Initially it was planned as an add-on to the DBSetXL, but if I read, that it is not desirable to have competing vehicles/trains and that this would/could be prevented - then we do not have another choice. In the end we have to fill the vehicle list to make the whole thing playable and achieve a good balance right from 1921 through to 3000 for some; at the same time to make it interesting enough for some players to give it a try.

About the inclusion of 'International' trains; if we have enough german ones, there won't be any need, but still it would be nice to have as much variety as possible.

Saskia wrote:The concept of AutoZug is cool, but we would have a problem when implementing it in TTD: What should they carry? ...

They will carry passengers. No problems at all to implement it. If you want an 'AutoZug' you build one by refitting it. You buy a loco or two add some passenger wagons, then you refit to 'AutoZug' and get say 30 % car transporters at the rear of the train using livery overrides. And as I said all wagons would have cargo type 'passengers'. If you want to add other types of cargo (mail) that should also be possible. Those car transporters could then have 2-3 loading states (eg empty or carrying cars). No need to go into too many details, I think that is surely possible without wasting sprites or vehicle IDs.

Saskia wrote:... replace mail with luggage and replace valuables with mail (banks -> mail centers) ...

I do like that one, that is an interesting concept ... I'll think about it. The only problem I see ATM is, if this is not a full set, that it will interfere with others. Some text strings will have to be overridden, so that you do have luggage waiting at a station and can deliver mail to a 'bank' without confusing the players.

Having an all passenger set, no freight is another good idea, I will be looking into that one as well. Surely we can come up with something very interesting. Since we have 'TownBuildNoRoads', and all the other 'TownGrowth...' features we are in control how large we want them to grow or how small we want them to stay. We can also advise how to set the various 'Patch' variables, by providing a sample 'ttdpatch.cfg' specifically adapted to playing a passenger only scenario.

Welcome, Michael ... It is always nice to have someone's input, especially from someone experienced as you are. As far as I can remember, the DB Passenger set was to add more variety to the playing experience. However, there have been some spanners thrown in the works ... no need for details. If there are 'Patch' enhancements in the pipeline, that could make it possible to mix vehicles together from different sets, ie the player chooses what trains s/he likes to play. Well, bring it on. I do not know what plans others have. So, if I have an idea and want to see it implemented, I do it or wait until may be one day ...

Michael wrote:... However, you didn´t address the original aim of this set once called the "DB passenger set". Which had been set up to include a multitude of DMUs and EMUs found missing in the DBXL.

I did mention, that all the reasons why Saskia wanted the DB passenger set developed are also part of the now 'Deutsche Bahn' set. I did not want to repeat all that in detail. Maybe developing a 'Deutsche Bahn' Passenger Trainset could be a real possibility.

About those time frame restrictions applied to vehicles ...

Michael wrote:That´s an original feature of the DB set since it´s first version

I do accept that, it is the way you have done it and there is nothing wrong with it, but I would do it differently. ATM, if we take the BR140 as example. It is available in 3 liveries: green (up to 1974), blue/white (1975-1986) and red (1987 onwards). If we write the year 1995 it is no longer possible to purchase the BR140 in blue/white livery. Now, I would like to do that, I have come across comments about this from others as well. This is the case with almost all engines and wagons of yours, that there is a time frame where the various liveries of such vehicles can be purchased. I do not talk about the model life or early retirement feature. And as I was asked what would be different - I did mention, that I would not have such a restriction - leave it to the players what they want. This is just an example of very minor issues, I would like to address differently.

Just a bit of history, about 2 years ago when I came across the original DBSet, I had just a faint idea to do a 'Swiss Set'. Later on I came across the planned 'Alpine Set' - very nice, no need to do anything, just sit back and wait until it is released, I was sure it is going to be something great. Well, nothing has come out yet, and that is no critisism, we are all very busy, after all it is a hobby working on TT, so this things take time. Now, when the 'Swiss Set' was launched a few weeks ago; I found it was now time to join and wait no longer. Now, I am hearing, that this train and that vehicle is being developed and it would be a waste of time to do similiar things twice ... Well, that is life we've got to start sometime and now there is going to be a 'Swiss Set' after all. Now back to Germany, I did follow the DB Passenger Set project a little bit from the side lines; it came to a halt, this can happen; but when there was renewed interest I thought I could help finishing it while we are doing the 'Swiss Set'.

Now, we are getting all sorts of input from all sides - very nice to hear other opinions, I welcome any feedback ... But it is just a little bit too late. I was not aware that there is a DBSetXL version for the arctic climate neither did I know of other 'specialised' trains being planned in whatever set and the many 'Patch' features that will come our way. eg. I was waiting for PathBasedSignalling for a very long time, now we have it and FiFo-Loading another nice feature has just been released - I do like surprises. Maybe one day, I even get my enhancement to callback 15. I intend to work with whatever features are currently available. Anyway - I do normally finish what I start, providing all that other important support, especially from artists, won't dry up. If we duplicate something, so be it, we can look at it as a learning exercise if everybody thinks it was a waste of time and effort. I have no intention to duplicate something already out there, but I do intend to continue the 'Deutsche Bahn' set, as long as that vital other support I need is available. We will be implementing interesting features, regardless whether they will be "imitated" in future developments. I do wish Saskia will one day get her trainset, after all she started the project. What we do need is a large army of artists, the rest is a piece of cake.

I won't be going into too much detail about technical limits. I am fully aware that there are limits, but the maximum number of vehicle IDs (116) does not seem to me to be a problem - we do have wagon overrides and refitting, which gives us so many opportunities now. My MU-Wagon concept for the Purchase Window, nothing earthshattering, simply a visual thing, will use one single vehicle ID plus a single vehicle ID for each such train we are going to have.

I would like to stress, that I have absolut nothing against the DBSetXL, it is a great trainset, if not the best; I personally use the DBSetXL often. We are not here to develop something that already exists, we would like something different.

Now, tell us all about those interesting features and concept you'd like to have implemented and I am sure we can develop a very feature rich 'Deutsche Bahn' trainset. I will try not to make just a 'copy' of another set.

OzTransLtd wrote:...

Saskia wrote:... replace mail with luggage and replace valuables with mail (banks -> mail centers) ...

I do like that one, that is an interesting concept ... I'll think about it. The only problem I see ATM is, if this is not a full set, that it will interfere with others. Some text strings will have to be overridden, so that you do have luggage waiting at a station and can deliver mail to a 'bank' without confusing the players. ...

It will be I think that's worth the whole thing. Another feature that differs from DBsetXL. If you want the normal gameplay, use DBsetXL. If you want luggage and luggage cars, mail and mail cars, use this set.

Can we add first class passengers too?

Unless first-class passengers refuse to ever ride in common cars, that would require a Patch, wouldn't it?

I guess so, but if you've a first class ticket, you won't travel second class in TTD, you just wait for the next train, where-ever it's going to

That's not a good idea. Because it would mean to force an existing industry to become the first class thingy. And that isn't worth it. Except if this will really be a passenger-only set, then all other industries could be converted to a sort of in-town "cargo". We could have first class passengers, luggage, ... and ... ehm, that isn't really worth it, I think

Saskia wrote:That's not a good idea. Because it would mean to force an existing industry to become the first class thingy. And that isn't worth it.

Well, that's not quite true. You could make it work like this:

Passengers = second-class passengers
Mail = first-class passengers
Valuables = mail