ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[athanasios]

... brewery is actualy in a town that lacks any river or lake nearby. This prevents using ECS for reallife based scenarios a bit, so it would be good to either remove restrictions at editor, or based on parametr given to grf.

Such cases are what I had in mind.
{
By the way, are you sure there didn't exist any river, lake in the past?

In my city there was a big brewery factory (FIX) that shut down many years before. Most part of it (it was huge) was demolished to build Metro station and Metro parking. But since it was build in 1893, and made from cement (not very common those days), a part was decided to remain and is currently being converted to a museum.

Now if you check the photos provided you will find no water source. But in the past a river was flowing and a couple of weeks ago I learned that the area was then called 'frog-isle' for profound reasons.

Where the river was flowing now exists an avenue and a tram station:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... ou-fix.jpg
}

[George]

If the player loads the Town Vector and any ONE of the following, but NO other vectors ...
1. Basic and Basic Arctic - the Glass Works produces glass
2. Basic Tropical - the Glass Works produces ceramics
3. Chemical - the Chemical Plant produces dyes
... Shouldn't these industries switch over to producing goods because there are no vectors loaded that accept glass, ceramics or dyes?

No. For that cases there should be houses.

[wallyweb]

If the player loads the Town Vector and any ONE of the following, but NO other vectors ...
1. Basic and Basic Arctic - the Glass Works produces glass
2. Basic Tropical - the Glass Works produces ceramics
3. Chemical - the Chemical Plant produces dyes
... Shouldn't these industries switch over to producing goods because there are no vectors loaded that accept glass, ceramics or dyes?

No. For that cases there should be houses.

I just tried a game with only Town and Basic vectors. None of the towns had houses to accept glass.

Also, the game built two Casinos, one of each of the two views, \ and /.

A suggestion ... With only the Town and Basic Vectors or Town and Chemical Vectors, depending upon the climate, a player can have glass, ceramics or dyes; or glass and dyes; or ceramics and dyes; ... Why not have an Artisan or Crafts industry to accept these? It could also accept tourists. It could produce goods and tourists. This would save having to force a town to accept glass, ceramics or dyes. Also, an Artisan or Crafts Industry could be built anywhere, including Tz4.

[michael blunck]

Why not have an Artisan or Crafts industry to accept these? It could also accept tourists. It could produce goods and tourists. This would save having to force a town to accept glass, ceramics or dyes. Also, an Artisan or Crafts Industry could be built anywhere, including Tz4.

Instead of designing special industries for that purpose, IMO it´d be a good idea to have sort of "town industries", which aren´t fully fledged "industries" but custom "buildings", equipped with some very limited mechanism to react to incoming cargo (accept, show animation, produce).

The downside of using "real industries" for such a tiny purpose would be the limited number of industries and the overall overhead, which isn´t a problem with using "buildings".

regards
Michael

[wallyweb]

what you said above ...

I like that. An Artisan or a Crafts shop would fit nicely in that setting. My only question would be whether these would count towards the maximum number of industry types available (36?) as well as the maximum permitted on a map (90). As town buildings, somehow I don't think so, but then, can town buildings be made to work with other than passengers, tourists, goods, food and/or mail?

[michael blunck]

My only question would be whether these would count towards the maximum number of industry types available (36?) as well as the maximum permitted on a map (90). As town buildings, somehow I don't think so, but then, can town buildings be made to work with other than passengers, tourists, goods, food and/or mail?

Those "town industries" would be essentially "buildings", not "industries" and hence wouldn´t count as industries. That´s the main point. And yes, they can be made to work with every cargo you like. I have quite a dozen of them, meanwhile.

This concept changes game considerably, BTW.

regards
Michael

[wallyweb]

And yes, they can be made to work with every cargo you like. I have quite a dozen of them, meanwhile.

Will somebody please sneak into this guy's lab with a camera and let us know what he's up to now?

This concept changes game considerably, BTW.

I imagine it would. Hopefully the new dynamics would be positive. It seems that you have been experimenting. What are your observations?

[George]

If the player loads the Town Vector and any ONE of the following, but NO other vectors ...
1. Basic and Basic Arctic - the Glass Works produces glass
2. Basic Tropical - the Glass Works produces ceramics
3. Chemical - the Chemical Plant produces dyes
... Shouldn't these industries switch over to producing goods because there are no vectors loaded that accept glass, ceramics or dyes?

No. For that cases there should be houses.

I just tried a game with only Town and Basic vectors. None of the towns had houses to accept glass.

They are not created yet.

Also, the game built two Casinos, one of each of the two views, \ and /.

As intended. Do you want to prevent it?

A suggestion ... With only the Town and Basic Vectors or Town and Chemical Vectors, depending upon the climate, a player can have glass, ceramics or dyes; or glass and dyes; or ceramics and dyes; ... Why not have an Artisan or Crafts industry to accept these?

Glass factory was invented for it.

It could also accept tourists.

It looks like a house then

It could produce goods and tourists. This would save having to force a town to accept glass, ceramics or dyes. Also, an Artisan or Crafts Industry could be built anywhere, including Tz4.

than it is rather small and then we get 90 industries per map limit in TTDP. In OTTD we would get a ton production change messages on big maps.

[George]

Instead of designing special industries for that purpose, IMO it´d be a good idea to have sort of "town industries", which aren´t fully fledged "industries" but custom "buildings", equipped with some very limited mechanism to react to incoming cargo (accept, show animation, produce).

A disadvantage is that cargo acceptance is unlimited for a house

So the big question I have is ... should these industry-styled buildings be represented in houses GRF like TTRS, or in industry GRFs like ECS?

[DanMacK]

This is an awesome idea re: the "localized" industries. Trucks would come in very handy for the limited cargoes from this type of industry

[wallyweb]

No. For that cases there should be houses.

I just tried a game with only Town and Basic vectors. None of the towns had houses to accept glass.

They are not created yet.

OK ... Perhaps Michael's suggestion could handle this.

Also, the game built two Casinos, one of each of the two views, \ and /.

As intended. Do you want to prevent it?

No ... I think its ok, as long as we know we can have one in each direction.

A suggestion ... With only the Town and Basic Vectors or Town and Chemical Vectors, depending upon the climate, a player can have glass, ceramics or dyes; or glass and dyes; or ceramics and dyes; ... Why not have an Artisan or Crafts industry to accept these?

Glass factory was invented for it.

I think you misunderstood me. An Artisan or Crafts industry would accept what the Glass factory or Chemical Plant produces. Or is the Glass factory not the same as the Glass Works?

It could also accept tourists.

It looks like a house then

It could look like a house but a small shop probably would be better.

It could produce goods and tourists. This would save having to force a town to accept glass, ceramics or dyes. Also, an Artisan or Crafts Industry could be built anywhere, including Tz4.

than it is rather small and then we get 90 industries per map limit in TTDP. In OTTD we would get a ton production change messages on big maps.

... which is why I like Michael's suggestion.

[michael blunck]

A disadvantage is that cargo acceptance is unlimited for a house

I don´t think it´s a disadvantage. It´s a feature. S.b.

So the big question I have is ... should these industry-styled buildings be represented in houses GRF like TTRS, or in industry GRFs like ECS?

I´ve included them into my buildings set, not in the industry set. From what I´ve written above, it should be clear that they´re more "houses" like "industries", simply because they lack all the frills you usually put into your industries.

This is an awesome idea

Thanks.

> we get 90 industries per map limit in TTDP
... which is why I like Michael's suggestion.

Because for "houses" there´s no limit at all. O/c, this feature would have to be used with care (or else you won´t need any real manufacturing industries ...)

regards
Michael

[wallyweb]

I´ve included them into my buildings set, not in the industry set. From what I´ve written above, it should be clear that they´re more "houses" like "industries", simply because they lack all the frills you usually put into your industries.

Sounds like Zimmlock would have some extra work in store for him.

Because for "houses" there´s no limit at all. O/c, this feature would have to be used with care (or else you won´t need any real manufacturing industries ...)

Caveat Emptor.

Seriously though, it would probably have to be able to be implemented as a separate grf if that is possible or else there would have to be a ton of cooperation between Town Set authors and Industry Set authors. Also, if implemented as a separate grf, would a Town Set's buildings be overwritten or would the required buildings simply be added? Does TTDX have a limit on town building types? It seems I remember Zimmlock having to sacrifice a statue to make a building once upon a time.

[DaleStan]

Does TTDX have a limit on town building types?

Yes. 255 new types between all GRF files.

[George]

A disadvantage is that cargo acceptance is unlimited for a house

I don´t think it´s a disadvantage. It´s a feature. S.b.

Every user would like to transport unlimited cargo to the destination (Use house instead of industry). The only penalty that comes to my mind is short house life. But with station spread it does not mean much these days

[michael blunck]

Seriously though, it would probably have to be able to be implemented as a separate grf if that is possible or else there would have to be a ton of cooperation between Town Set authors and Industry Set authors.

Huh? I don´t think so. Firstly, we don´t like "separate .grfs" (possibly including only one object) at all, and secondly, there´s no "cooperation" needed. Just use the ECS labels (or set up a cargo translation table).

Also, if implemented as a separate grf, would a Town Set's buildings be overwritten or would the required buildings simply be added?

That´s the typical problem with "separate .grfs". No, they won´t be overwritten, instead you´ll end up having 3 different banks, etc.

Does TTDX have a limit on town building types?

Totally 255. But because type != object there´s no "serious" limit, IMO. At least not in the same way as it is for industries.

regards
Michael

[wallyweb]

255 new types between all GRF files

- Just use the ECS labels (or set up a cargo translation table).
- No, they won´t be overwritten, instead you´ll end up having 3 different banks, etc.
- type != object there´s no "serious" limit, IMO

Thanks guys!
Ok ... It now sounds relatively simple. No new grf's required. Lots of room for some new types. Hoards of room so lots of towns have a chance to get a piece of the action. Sounds a lot like how George originally added his hotels and statues to the game. I would assume George would be able to implement these by including them in some of his vectors. ( )

[George]

Ok ... It now sounds relatively simple. No new grf's required. Lots of room for some new types. Hoards of room so lots of towns have a chance to get a piece of the action. Sounds a lot like how George originally added his hotels and statues to the game. I would assume George would be able to implement these by including them in some of his vectors. ( )

Or in TTRS?

I'm not so happy with this idea. Now you have to find a place to transport cargo to. With "in house industries" you will not think about it, but deliver cargo to any big town - it will accept anything you like. I do not want to make it this way. Goods are enough for this.
I'd vote for increasing the size of industry array. I'd prefer them to be industries to provide limitations. Or, as alternative, some sort of accepting limit for houses, and me doubts what is easier

[Axlrose]

I do not feel that having small areas within a town accepting a meager amount of raw material would be game breaking. Actually, forcing a player to direct all materials to just one industry makes the game too linear. Looking at real life, and in my situation here in the United States, major cities might have a specialty of sorts, but they are not limited to just one industry. Chicago had numerous steel mills in its heyday; but so did Pittsburgh. Chicago was also a major meat packing city, but not every farm transported its goods to Chicago to be processed. Whereas the Northwest is known for its lumber, Chicago still has its hardware stores with wood. I do not believe what Michael has proposed translates into the industries becoming secondary. The large industries will still be the major acceptors of raw materials, but small diversions into town would be a realistic approach. And they would give specialized vehicles a purpose. I do not remember the last time I used a vehicle for anything but transporting passengers. Now a small lumber truck bringing a small shipment to a local carpenter would be a pleasant scene instead of the same lumber trains in every game moving tons and tons of lumber to one saw mill.....

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Off-topic: I think I figured out Michael's secret - he owns a Tardis! He travels ahead about six months to a year, reads what someone suggests as an idea for improving the game, travels back in time and creates / codes the idea, then when it is proposed, he calmly states, "Oh, you mean like this?" while sticking out his tongue in real life, going "Nyah nyah - you can't have it (yet)!"

[George]

I do not feel that having small areas within a town accepting a meager amount of raw material would be game breaking. Actually, forcing a player to direct all materials to just one industry makes the game too linear.

You can't do it. Every industry has production limit, that causes accepting limit.

The large industries will still be the major acceptors of raw materials,

Yes, that is intended, but can not be done without code modifications

but small diversions into town would be a realistic approach.

That is the aim. Impossible.