Informational non-content on Bananas

[planetmaker]

there are many NewGRFs on BaNaNaS which are no longer playable

which? Please go by what you can download with 1.3.0-beta2. Trunkation of the quoted statement on purpose

[kamnet]

there are many NewGRFs on BaNaNaS which are no longer playable

which? Please go by what you can download with 1.3.0-beta2. Trunkation of the quoted statement on purpose

I've not ran into any myself, but it's been mentioned by others a few times both here and on IRC. I see no reason why somebody would need to make that up.

[planetmaker]

there are many NewGRFs on BaNaNaS which are no longer playable

which? Please go by what you can download with 1.3.0-beta2. Trunkation of the quoted statement on purpose

I've not ran into any myself, but it's been mentioned by others a few times both here and on IRC. I see no reason why somebody would need to make that up.

Thus we can conclude that it's just defamatory claims unless you present facts to backup it. I'd indeed be interested to know about broken content.

[PikkaBird]

Thus we can conclude that it's just defamatory claims unless you present facts to backup it. I'd indeed be interested to know about broken content.

The example I used earlier, "OpenTTD Plus", still shows up in the download list in trunk.

[planetmaker]

Thus we can conclude that it's just defamatory claims unless you present facts to backup it. I'd indeed be interested to know about broken content.

The example I used earlier, "OpenTTD Plus", still shows up in the download list in trunk.

I thought counting would at least work like
one,
two,
many



So we got one NewGRF which is completely broken but worked somewhat with earlier versions of OpenTTD. Where's the "many"? I'm still waiting for kamnet's long list of broken NewGRFs.

[Sylf]

There are two more I could download with 1.3.0 beta2 that's incompatible.
"Banks and Watertowers can close down"
"Long Introduction Date for Trains and Cars"

Sorry PM, if more than two can be considered many, here you go

[Transportman]

That is the only real issue I see and the solution is very simple: disallow it formally and regularly check or let users report invalid NewGRF's.

And here's a problem that offers no good solution. None of the authors who uploaded their content to BaNaNaS agreed to the above when they created their accounts. If the BaNaNaS admins wish to change the terms of service, then they will have to notify the authors of the change. If those authors do not agree, then you've now turned a small molehill into a mountain of an issue.

But what is going to stop me, you or someone else from now completely overloading the service with empty informational NewGRFs? There is no rule that prohibits that at this moment, so the rules have to change.

There is a way around the mountain of an issue, and that is not allowing new uploads if the uploader does not agree with the new TOS. Old work gets a flag in the system that they are still under the old TOS and should be treated by Devs as such, new work falls under a new TOS

But I think the whole TOS have been written without these issues in mind and were just some simple rules for repackaging and in what format things should be uploaded, basically allowing this to happen now.

[PikkaBird]

But what is going to stop me, you or someone else from now completely overloading the service with empty informational NewGRFs?

What's going to stop you is the fact that it's impossible to "overload the service". One finds content on BaNaNas by searching by text string, or by OpenTTD automatically searching by GRFID/MD5. Any content which doesn't match the search may as well not exist.

And no-one who thinks the ToS needs to change has yet said exactly how it needs to change.

[Purno]

Are we really planning on abusing Bananas just because there isn't a specific rule, while everybody with the least bit of common sense knows what Bananas was made for?

AFAIK Bananas was made to help the player, the end-user, to easily download and install NewGRFs without the need to be familiar with how to install, where to get, and "wtf is grf?".

Some people really seem to try their upmost best to abuse and sabotage a service that developers made, voluntarily and without pay, in order to HELP PEOPLE FFS!

IMO the informational content doesn't comply with the intentended goal of Bananas; to install content with a single click. If OzTrans or whoever else wanted to find a way around the "no-deletion" policy, IMO the best way would be to contact the devs about it. It seems to me that the Bananas devs only want to help the player, so if OzTrans has the same goal, I'm sure they'll be able to find a solution.

But instead, we'll keep the devs busy writing rules just because a few people are looking for loopholes in the current rules, while none were really necessary. Everything went fine till a few people decided to abuse the service.

[kamnet]

But what is going to stop me, you or someone else from now completely overloading the service with empty informational NewGRFs? There is no rule that prohibits that at this moment, so the rules have to change.

What stops me, you, or someone else from completely overloading the service with any other type of NewGRF? Do we want to have BaNaNaS admins start restricting what type of NewGRFs are uploaded, or what content must or must not be included?

Let's pretend that instead of OzTrans uploading his information NewGRF, it was George uploading Long Vehicles v4. As many are well aware, some of these sprites contain depictions of nude women. What if somebody finds this offensive, or lives in a country where such content may be illegal to download? Is this still a problem? There's nothing in the ToS that would prevent this. Do we make a new rule for this as well, and have the admins monitor the content to ensure that George doesn't spam BaNaNaS and potentially turn it into a pornography distribution system?

What if somebody uploads a Town Names NewGRF that contains nothing but vulgar and offensive words? ("Citizens celebrate! First bus arrives in ******ville!") Do we now start ensuring that unoffensive language is monitored?

In the end, it's entirely up to the BaNaNaS admins to decide what they want to do here. It's their private server that they pay for, contributed to the OpenTTD community out of the kindness of their hearts and their good will. Nobody is required to use it or participate in its operation. But, ask ourselves, is this what we want the admins to do? Do we want them to start monitoring content to ensure that it complies with somebody's philosophical, moral or ethical beliefs? If they have to start doing this on a regular basis, taking up their free time, how interested are they going to be in continuing to develop and support this service?

I could be wrong, but I don't think that they want to get involved in doing that. Just having to sort through the various opinions in this discussion has been enough of a headache. And, as I've previously said, we could all resolve this on our own willpower. If we don't like a particular NewGRF, we are all free to ignore it. The presence of any particular file causes none of us any physical or emotional anguish. It's not a violation of your rights, your liberties or your life.

[kamnet]

Are we really planning on abusing Bananas just because there isn't a specific rule, while everybody with the least bit of common sense knows what Bananas was made for?

I don't believe it is anybody's intent to "abuse BaNaNaS".

IMO the informational content doesn't comply with the intended goal of Bananas; to install content with a single click.

How, exactly, does OzTrans file not comply with the intended goal? It's a properly-formed NewGRF. It complies completely to the NewGRF spec. Users can install it easily with one click. If you choose to download it, the NewGRF operates exactly as the author intended it to. The description even clearly informs the user what the purpose of the NewGRF is for, and how it operates.

[Purno]

IMO the informational content doesn't comply with the intended goal of Bananas; to install content with a single click.

How, exactly, does OzTrans file not comply with the intended goal? It's a properly-formed NewGRF. It complies completely to the NewGRF spec. Users can install it easily with one click. If you choose to download it, the NewGRF operates exactly as the author intended it to. The description even clearly informs the user what the purpose of the NewGRF is for, and how it operates.

As far as I understood from this topic (I didn't test this GRF in Bananas myself), the file OzTrans uploaded only tells people to go to a specific URL to manually download the GRF. And, as far as I understood, that specific URL requires users to register before being able to download the GRF.

Assuming this information is correct, it doesn't make obtaining and installing a GRF as easy as Bananas intended.

If this information is incorrect, I misunderstood and apologize for blaming OzTrans for something he did not do.

[kamnet]

As far as I understood from this topic (I didn't test this GRF in Bananas myself), the file OzTrans uploaded only tells people to go to a specific URL to manually download the GRF. And, as far as I understood, that specific URL requires users to register before being able to download the GRF. Assuming this information is correct, it doesn't make obtaining and installing a GRF as easy as Bananas intended.

You have understood it correctly. It is your feeling, then, that because this NewGRF instructs a user to download another NewGRF which is not available on the service, that it has failed to uphold the goal of BaNaNaS?

Let me share with you an experience that I had just an hour ago. I was interested in trying out Quast65's Custom Tunnel Entrances and Exits NewGRF, which is available on BaNaNaS. After downloading it and activating it, I noticed that the station tiles were not fully covering up the tunnels, and that the graphics didn't appear to match correctly as I had expected. After trying to figure it out for a few minutes, I decided to consult the readme file. In that documentation, I was informed that it was suggested that I download FooBar's Metro Track Set, and to use the Underground Metro tracks in order for these sprites to work as the author had intended. I then went and installed Metro Track Set, with a note in the description that the Underground Metro tracks had to be enabled in the parameters. I downloaded that set, enabled the parameters and activated the NewGRF. When I started the game, I had no Underground Metro tracks. Since I started the game in the year 2300, I thought maybe I was too late. I changed the start date to 1960, and still did not have them. I tried 1980, and still had none. So I decided to consult the readme for this file, and in the documentation I found that in order for the Underground Metro tracks to work, I not only had to activate the parameters, but I also had to download a compatible train set, and then change some more parameters to match the train set(s) I chose. After finally doing this, everything worked, and beautifully.

Now, let me ask a few questions of you, and see if your opinion still holds true:

1) I downloaded the first set, with the expectation that it would immediately work. My experience was that it did not work as I expected it to, but if I had paid more attention to the documentation, I would have learned that this operated exactly as the author had intended it to. Because it did not work as I thought it should, should I report that back to BaNaNaS admins as a non-working NewGRF?

2) In order to use the first NewGRF as the author had intended, I had to download a second NewGRF. In order to use that second NewGRF as the author had intended, I had to download a third (or more) NewGRF. It is convenient that all of these files were available on BaNaNaS. However, since no author is required to use BaNaNaS, it is possible that one of these other NewGRFs might not be available and I would have to go to another site or service in order to obtain them. If those files were not available via BaNaNaS, would the first NewGRF be in violation of the intended goal of BaNaNaS? Not only did it require multiple clicks, it required me to obtain additional content in order to function as both I and the author expected it to.

[Purno]

1) I downloaded the first set, with the expectation that it would immediately work. My experience was that it did not work as I expected it to, but if I had paid more attention to the documentation, I would have learned that this operated exactly as the author had intended it to. Because it did not work as I thought it should, should I report that back to BaNaNaS admins as a non-working NewGRF?

If you think the issue is worth reporting, then please do, and let the admins decide.

2) In order to use the first NewGRF as the author had intended, I had to download a second NewGRF. In order to use that second NewGRF as the author had intended, I had to download a third (or more) NewGRF. It is convenient that all of these files were available on BaNaNaS. However, since no author is required to use BaNaNaS, it is possible that one of these other NewGRFs might not be available and I would have to go to another site or service in order to obtain them. If those files were not available via BaNaNaS, would the first NewGRF be in violation of the intended goal of BaNaNaS? Not only did it require multiple clicks, it required me to obtain additional content in order to function as both I and the author expected it to.

Did you make the authors aware of this? Did you make suggestions on how installing this content can be made easier?

The difference between your example and OzTrans, is that knowing Quast and Foobar, they did everything they can to make it as easy as possible, but still offering the player the possiblity to choose what GRFs to use (and thus not enforcing to use other GRFs). OzTrans however, voluntarily wants to keep his content away from Bananas and behind an unpopular registeration. I conclude that OzTrans isn't trying to make it the player as easy as possible.

I agree that your struggle to get your GRF working is annoying. But please make suggestions on how to improve things like this. I can guess their reasons. Quast doesn't want you to enforce a trackset, since the GRF more or less works without (thus leaving the choice to the player), FooBar's trackset needs a trainset, but since there's several options, probably was unable to code this in a way that'd make it easier for the player. OpenTTD and NewGRF still have their technical limitations after all. Quast can't make a popup box asking "Hey, my stuff works better if you download this as well. Wanna do that? [yes] [no]" and FooBar can't make a popup box asking "You need a trainset installed to get tracks. Select one of the list below". I'm sure that if they could make such a popup box, they'd do it.

All GRFs you mentioned require a hassle to install, but the reasons why are quite different. My opinion remains. OzTrans *chose* to make installation a hassle, without any benefit for the player.

[Eddi]

I'm sure that if they could make such a popup box, they'd do it.

Actually NewGRFs have a way to display warning/error messages upon starting the game.

(but this is going off-topic)

[michael blunck]

All GRFs you mentioned require a hassle to install, but the reasons why are quite different. My opinion remains. OzTrans *chose* to make installation a hassle, without any benefit for the player.

So, a possible modification of the ToS should be expanded to include the opinion of the up-loader?

regards
Michael

[kamnet]

1) I downloaded the first set, with the expectation that it would immediately work. My experience was that it did not work as I expected it to, but if I had paid more attention to the documentation, I would have learned that this operated exactly as the author had intended it to. Because it did not work as I thought it should, should I report that back to BaNaNaS admins as a non-working NewGRF?

If you think the issue is worth reporting, then please do, and let the admins decide.

I'm asking you, specifically, if it should be reported. If you were me, would you report a NewGRF that didn't work as you had expected it to?

2) In order to use the first NewGRF as the author had intended, I had to download a second NewGRF. In order to use that second NewGRF as the author had intended, I had to download a third (or more) NewGRF. It is convenient that all of these files were available on BaNaNaS. However, since no author is required to use BaNaNaS, it is possible that one of these other NewGRFs might not be available and I would have to go to another site or service in order to obtain them. If those files were not available via BaNaNaS, would the first NewGRF be in violation of the intended goal of BaNaNaS? Not only did it require multiple clicks, it required me to obtain additional content in order to function as both I and the author expected it to.

Did you make the authors aware of this? Did you make suggestions on how installing this content can be made easier?

The difference between your example and OzTrans, is that knowing Quast and Foobar, they did everything they can to make it as easy as possible, but still offering the player the possiblity to choose what GRFs to use (and thus not enforcing to use other GRFs). OzTrans however, voluntarily wants to keep his content away from Bananas and behind an unpopular registeration. I conclude that OzTrans isn't trying to make it the player as easy as possible.

I agree that your struggle to get your GRF working is annoying. But please make suggestions on how to improve things like this. I can guess their reasons. Quast doesn't want you to enforce a trackset, since the GRF more or less works without (thus leaving the choice to the player), FooBar's trackset needs a trainset, but since there's several options, probably was unable to code this in a way that'd make it easier for the player. OpenTTD and NewGRF still have their technical limitations after all. Quast can't make a popup box asking "Hey, my stuff works better if you download this as well. Wanna do that? [yes] [no]" and FooBar can't make a popup box asking "You need a trainset installed to get tracks. Select one of the list below". I'm sure that if they could make such a popup box, they'd do it.

You still didn't answer my question. If those files had not been available, would the original NewGRF in question violate the intended purpose of BaNaNaS?

All GRFs you mentioned require a hassle to install, but the reasons why are quite different. My opinion remains. OzTrans *chose* to make installation a hassle, without any benefit for the player.

I don't think OzTrans chose to make it a hassle. Still, that brings up another question. Should there be a requirement that a NewGRF author makes things easier, or "not a hassle", in order to add them to BaNaNaS? Who makes that determination as to what is or is not easy?

Part of the reason that I brought up Quast & FooBar's NewGRFs was that it could have been possible that they made it even easier for me to understand their requirements by placing them in the description. It could be argued that I could have become more informed by reading the readme file, as the directions indicate, and that's fair. Still, there's currently no requirement that NewGRF authors create descriptions in any particular manner, and the way they were written is the way that they had intended. But, contrast this with OzTrans' description, which very clearly and explicitly informs the user of the requirements. The latter is quite clear, the former is less clear, but you choose to defend the former and criticize the latter.

In regards to the functionality of the NewGRFs, it's very clear that all of them operated EXACTLY as the author intended them to work. While Quast's NewGRF can function without FooBar's, it's very clear once you begin to use it that it's purpose is not fulfilled without adding FooBar's set. And, likewise, while you do get SOME of the functionality of FooBar's set by itself, you don't get the full functionality without downloading yet another set, and without adding that set you do not get the full functionality of Quast's set. In comparison, OzTrans' NewGRF operated in the exact same way. The set added to BaNaNaS works perfectly as the author intended it to, but if the user expects it to be fully functional as the user expected, it requires the user to also install an additional file. Even though all of these NewGRFs operate in the same manner, you defend one and criticize the other.

A common theme that I'm starting to see from several users is that they believe that OzTrans' actions were done as a deliberate choice to harrass, hassle or otherwise upset the BaNaNaS admins and the tt-forums community. I've been around here for nearly five years now, and while it could be argued that OzTrans has been a bit of a hot head, I've never seen him take any action which was meant to antagonize anybody. What I have seen is that he will make a decision for himself that he feels is in his best interest, to which a few others then complain about because they feel he made the wrong decision, one that they were not consulted on.

It seems to me that some people are letting their emotions get the better of their logical thinking. I would be very sad if these emotions lead to changes in policies and attitudes which end up being detrimental to both the tt-forums community, and TTD/TTDLX/OpenTTD players as a whole.

[ChillCore]

I'm sure that if they could make such a popup box, they'd do it.

Actually NewGRFs have a way to display warning/error messages upon starting the game.

Actually content can set a dependancy on other content and download it automatically. Have a look at the tutorial AI which selects the apropriate map and AI's autoselecting their needed libraries.
I am not sure the GRFs Kamnet uses as an exuse to justify the spamming were uploaded before or after this was made available but that does not matter in this case as they do provide content. (No content == SPAM)

It seems to me that some people are letting their emotions get the better of their logical thinking. I would be very sad if these emotions lead to changes in policies and attitudes which end up being detrimental to both the tt-forums community, and TTD/TTDLX/OpenTTD players as a whole.

It seeems to me that people are getting fed up with stupid stuff like this happening over and over again.
I really do not get why you climbed on this pile of crap and keep defending this inapropriate behaviour with petty excuses that hold no ground.

If I go to a bakery I expect to get home with a bread. If I want something on it I go to the shop next door and buy some marmelade. If I don't want to go to two shops I go to the supermarket and buy the both of them at once.
In neither of both cases I come home with an empty bag, an empty jar and a note telling me that I have to go to this other store, fill in my name, choose, a password, jump on one leg holding a monkey on my head and say hello just for the sake of the next button working and have access to the content ... if in the meantime I am not dissallowed access to said content by being banned or whatever for some reason. (*)

(*) Just for the record: I am not saying this is standard procedure on the site that is yet again in the middle of this all (intentional or not) but it is starting to look as if this charade has been well prepared in advance.


I'm tired of this blabla and am going to invest some of my time into writing a HARDCODED spam filter.
No option to hide the undesired content by the user. Just be gone with it.




ps: Kamnet, you can report content that you think should not be on bananas just like someone has reported that iSpam. Simples.

[Dave]

Bit of a joke now isn't it? Kamnet you are professing this high-horse tosh about spoiling the game fir everyone then defend everything that has been done. Referring to George's LVs for an entirely different reason than this.

I'm just planning my new igrf - it'll have detailed information about how to go and boil your head. The real thing is ONLY available from me personally.

[V453000 :)]

My point of view:

1. Bananas is a service with following purpose:
- easily access newGRFs from the game, supporting following two points
- make newGRFs accessible for joining servers and loading savegames
- make older versions of newGRFs accessible for joining servers and loading savegames
--- This "iGRF" goes against all three of those points, not providing any of them - while EVERY valid newGRF does that

2. Clearly spam
- does not contribute to Bananas at all
- bananas is for newGRFs, not for LINKS, absolutely does not matter where it links, if the site is passworded, requires registration or whatever else. All this does is a link - purposedly.
- relation to openttd is irrelevant, I could also brew beer for free and put an iGRF "order my beer from this site, to improve gaming experience", just like you are saying "download beer from this site, to improve gaming experience"
--- spam should be dealt with as spam

3. We hate bananas but we use it?
- on simuscape there is stated something like "we do this for the players". If you did it for the players, you would use bananas normally without stupid workarounds.
- I think this can easily be taken as provoking stupid attention because the "iGRF" is NOT contributing to Bananas, it is using it (according to my point n1)

4. The thing definitely isnt meh
- it goes straight against the purpose of bananas
- it has been stated that OzTrans intends to upload more of these files which will inevitably result in mess

I do realize that your relationship towards the developers is awkward (which I dont care about), but discussing it with them, if bananas could support it, or whatnot, has not been done if I am right. Do you really think that workarounds, hacks and abuse of the system will help the situation? I think you can see the answer yourself