Transport Tycoon Forums

krtaylor wrote:I think actually the best speed-limit usage would be just as described above. No special track or signs; it's a paramter of particular station types. This way, if you had a high-speed line, you could use a high-speed station that wouldn't slow down the trains; or, if you had a less good station, trains would have to slow down lest passengers get sucked off the platform. This might even be possible to do.

Hey, you like my (kinda) idea/ fantastic brainwave ,well maybe a brainwave . Newbridges also have control over their speed. So it might not even be too hard. Then again, I know nothing about patching, but I'm allowed to get my hopes up .

Also, higher costs of landscaping would be great, I think. And looking forward to the scenario, Cornelius.

I know I'm resurrecting a very old thread, but I can't see it on the "impossible" list or having been discussed more recently, so I don't know if this could be a go-er or not, but here it is...

Trains should slow down, rather than stop. If they can see a red signal, the end of the line, a station they will call at, or if the player presses the "Stop!" button or the "Reverse" - they should slow down over the space of maybe 2-3 tiles. (If this distance could be dependent on weight and speed, so much the better!)

This would be more realistic, but would also add some interesting challenges to the game...

• If you can see two trains on a collision course, very close, pressing Stop/Reverse might not be enough to avoid a crash.
• If you use the old trick of lifting the rails between the trains to prevent this type of crash, and the train was unable to stop before the end of the line, it would derail with the same result as crashing (except you might have only one train dead then, rather than two).
• If you added a station to a train's orders, or skipped through to a station, when the train was going through that station and unable to stop in time, it would carry on through.
• (and perhaps the most interesting and demanding), if a signal turned red right in front of a train (eg, two trains racing for the same block, one train gets there just ahead of the other), that train will slow down and stop. Player will get a news alert, eg "Signal passed at danger near Wotsitville", and train will remain stopped (and so holding other signals at red) until player releases it. (That's if you're lucky and it doesn't crash into the other train).

Thoughts and comments? Is it possible to make trains look ahead and slow down in this way? If it is, would this add a good level of challenge to the game or would it just drive people insane? (If so, don't turn on that feature - simple!)

The man's a visonary!

I love it . Granted, thats probably in part to your using an existing thread on a similar topic rather than starting a new one, but the idea is great too

Stevie D wrote:

• (and perhaps the most interesting and demanding), if a signal turned red right in front of a train (eg, two trains racing for the same block, one train gets there just ahead of the other), that train will slow down and stop. Player will get a news alert, eg "Signal passed at danger near Wotsitville", and train will remain stopped (and so holding other signals at red) until player releases it. (That's if you're lucky and it doesn't crash into the other train).

Great ideas! But about the fourth list item, how could the problem with two trains approaching a block be solved? Maybe PBS could help? Such as, any train approaching a block with more than one entry must reserve a path through it as soon it passes its point of no return (i.e. the last tile from which a full stop at current speed could be accomplished before reaching the signal).

This is rather like Locomotion works. However, I think it would be a terrible idea, if even if could be done. For one thing, it would make accidents and jams very frequent - by the nature of TTD, the signals do frequently turn red when a train is immediately upon them, and so would constantly be running through danger signals and hanging up. This doesn't happen in real-world railways for two reasons - first, trains don't generally run nearly so close together as they do in the much smaller world of TTD, and second, ordinarily there is an intermediary yellow "caution" light that shows if another train is nearby ahead, so the following train knows to keep going, but slowly. TTD hasn't any such thing - though that's a suggestion I asked for years ago, it was ruled impossible.

krtaylor wrote:it was ruled impossible.

Actually, eis_os has mentioned it a number of times, about track speed limits and whatnot, which, while not graphically the same, operates a very similar principle, such as keeping trains a reasonable distance apart, and (if this was implemented), stopping them SPADing, but he never did it due to lack of interest. Rally up the old posts perhaps and read back over them, and if there IS a patch developer interested in THIS feature, perhaps there will be suitable interest in eis_os' feature too.

I dunno, just seems a bit off to say "it was ruled impossible" when there may be other factors and information you're not aware of.

Not an attack, just bringing it to light!

Well, it's true that was a LONG time ago, and there has been a LOT of Patch development since then. What was ruled impossible years ago, may very well not be anymore.

In fact, if I recall correctly, that may have been my very first suggestion and very first post on this board, not 100% sure....

krtaylor wrote:This is rather like Locomotion works. However, I think it would be a terrible idea, if even if could be done. For one thing, it would make accidents and jams very frequent - by the nature of TTD, the signals do frequently turn red when a train is immediately upon them, and so would constantly be running through danger signals and hanging up. This doesn't happen in real-world railways for two reasons - first, trains don't generally run nearly so close together as they do in the much smaller world of TTD, and second, ordinarily there is an intermediary yellow "caution" light that shows if another train is nearby ahead, so the following train knows to keep going, but slowly. TTD hasn't any such thing - though that's a suggestion I asked for years ago, it was ruled impossible.

These real-life "caution" signals can be simulated with pre-signals[1]. But it doesn't work smoothly, as the trains still go at maximum possible speed just to stop at the pre-signal, instead of driving by it with, say, 50% of their maximum speed, which would be the realistic beahvior. So a new signal type would have to be introduced for this. The specification would be something like this (I named 'em "slow-down signals", but maybe the native speakers can tell us the real name?):

• A slow-down signal has two states: green (or off?) and yellow.
• A slow-down signal is always one-way.
• A slow-down signal can only exist with a single-track signal block with one one-way exit behind it. If the block behind it has more than one exit, a two-way exit, or other entries, the slow-down signal is automatically reverted to a normal signal (automatic conversions for pre-signals and PBS apply normally).
• A slow-down signal is yellow as long as its successor signal (its "main" signal [2]) is red.
• When a train approaches a yellow slow-down signal, it reduces its speed to a given percentage (maybe combined with a minimum and/or maximum speed?) until reaching the main signal. As trains can already be slowed down on bridges or due to coaches with maximum speed, I doubt it is completely impossible to implement this.
• A slow-down signal is ignored by its predecessor signal; the predecessor signal will be turning green when the train has completely passed the main signal (otherwise a fast train might crash into a slow train). I think this is the difficult part - but on the other hand, combo signals functions similar. Maybe the status information of the main signal could be "transported" to the predecessor signal by storing it in the slow-down signal?

What do you think?

[1] By the way, the German term for that kind of signals is "Vorsignal" which is the exact translation for pre-signal.
[2] A slow-down signal indicates the state of the following signal which is called "Hauptsignal" (which translates to main signal).

krtaylor wrote:In fact, if I recall correctly, that may have been my very first suggestion and very first post on this board, not 100% sure....

You can look up all your posts in the User Control Panel. Use the link to display all the user's posts (in that case, your own) and select the last page (the list is in reverse chronological order).

aahz77 wrote:But about the fourth list item, how could the problem with two trains approaching a block be solved? Maybe PBS could help? Such as, any train approaching a block with more than one entry must reserve a path through it as soon it passes its point of no return (i.e. the last tile from which a full stop at current speed could be accomplished before reaching the signal).

I guess part of the challenge would be to build your signalling system so that it doesn't matter if a train SPADs. This could be done by having a long 'overlap' (ie, distance from the signal to the junction), or by various uses of pre-signals, so that even if one train does have a signal turn red right in front of it, and passes it, it won't foul the route of any other train.

Maybe PBS could work - I don't know, it's not a feature that I've got to grips with myself. But does PBS apply at every signal? I was under the impression it was only at certain specified signals, like pre-signalling is. How easy would it be to have it so that the train reserved a route from two tiles before the signal? You might be right, that might be the solution to stop SPADs.

It might be interesting to set up a network and watch one set of junctions to see just how often this is likely to be a problem - to see how often a signal does turn red just in front of a train. Maybe if I get bored this week I'll do that...

Not every feature of the Patch is supposed to make the game easier ... this is one that is supposed to make it more of a challenge!

It's called a "caution" signal as far as I know. But there isn't a special signal for that purpose - it's just another state of an ordinary signal.

I don't like the idea of a special signal with "green" and "caution" settings, but no red. I would envision this as a modification of the existing one-way signals, such that all ordinary one-way signals in the situation as described above, would automatically gain a third yellow "caution" position, in addition to the green and the red. This would work as follows:

Red = there is a train in the next block (just the way it is now)
Green = there is no train in the next block OR in the block following that
Yellow = there is no train in the next block, but there is a train in the one following that.

And there you'd go.

aahz77 wrote:These real-life "caution" signals can be simulated with pre-signals[1]. But it doesn't work smoothly, as the trains still go at maximum possible speed just to stop at the pre-signal, instead of driving by it with, say, 50% of their maximum speed, which would be the realistic beahvior. So a new signal type would have to be introduced for this. The specification would be something like this (I named 'em "slow-down signals", but maybe the native speakers can tell us the real name?):

• A slow-down signal has two states: green (or off?) and yellow.
• A slow-down signal is always one-way.
• A slow-down signal can only exist with a single-track signal block with one one-way exit behind it. If the block behind it has more than one exit, a two-way exit, or other entries, the slow-down signal is automatically reverted to a normal signal (automatic conversions for pre-signals and PBS apply normally).
• A slow-down signal is yellow as long as its successor signal (its "main" signal [2]) is red.
• When a train approaches a yellow slow-down signal, it reduces its speed to a given percentage (maybe combined with a minimum and/or maximum speed?) until reaching the main signal. As trains can already be slowed down on bridges or due to coaches with maximum speed, I doubt it is completely impossible to implement this.
• A slow-down signal is ignored by its predecessor signal; the predecessor signal will be turning green when the train has completely passed the main signal (otherwise a fast train might crash into a slow train). I think this is the difficult part - but on the other hand, combo signals functions similar. Maybe the status information of the main signal could be "transported" to the predecessor signal by storing it in the slow-down signal?

In the UK, most lines now have 3- or 4-aspect signalling - each signal can show red (danger), yellow (caution) or green (clear) - and some signals can also show double-yellow (slight caution - not sure what the technical name for that is!)

Back in the early days of signalling, the signals protecting the next block were called 'home' signals, and the signals warning you what the next home signal was showing were called 'distant' signals. There are few, if any, of these left on normal railways here.

I was thinking that 3-aspect signals would be great, with 'caution' meaning exactly as it does on real rails, and slowing the train down, but I don't know that this is a good idea - although it sounds great, I'm not sure how it would be of use.

So maybe it does need to be a new type of 'distant'/'caution' signal. But then it's a tricky question knowing how to make it work with the gameplay. The reason 'distant' signals were used was because drivers couldn't see the 'home' signal - either it was too far away, or round a corner. That doesn't apply in TTD - the train knows what the next signal is showing, no matter how far away it is, and can be ready to stop at any signal that is at red.

Where 'distant'/'caution' signals would be great would be in protecting signals that might turn red soon. But if PBS can reserve a path from 2 tiles before the train reahes the signal, I'm not sure that we need 'caution' signals at all...

Stevie D wrote:In the UK, most lines now have 3- or 4-aspect signalling - each signal can show red (danger), yellow (caution) or green (clear) - and some signals can also show double-yellow (slight caution - not sure what the technical name for that is!)

The technical name is "double yellow", as far as I know it doesn't have any other common name.

The UK is unusual in that its signalling systems are informative rather than restrictive; in the US or Europe, signals often specify a particular thing that the driver must do (eg, "stop then proceed", or "slow to 40 mph"), but in the UK the only "rules" are that the driver cannot exceed the line speed limit, and cannot pass a red signal. He's expected to use his judgement, his route knowledge and the information provided by the signals as far as everything else goes.

Stevie D wrote: I was thinking that 3-aspect signals would be great, with 'caution' meaning exactly as it does on real rails, and slowing the train down, but I don't know that this is a good idea - although it sounds great, I'm not sure how it would be of use.

It would be extremely useful for one of the two reasons why it is useful in the real world.

The first reason these are useful in the real world, is because a train moving at full speed takes a long time to stop, so if it's going top speed and comes upon a red signal, it may very well not be able to stop in time. So you have the distant, or caution signal, to make sure that you're NOT going at full speed if there's a possibility of coming upon a red signal. That's not really relevant to TTD, since the trains have the ability to stop on a dime no matter how heavy.

But the other reason is still very much relevant. Consider a very heavily trafficked piece of line, where the trains are stacked up behind each other. or there are faster ones stuck behind a slow on for a while. The slow one, of course, will move smoothly. But the fast ones will be going at full speed... then come to a full stop at the signal until the slow train clears the next block... then full speed again... only to stop at the next signal again. And so on down the line. Now, in the real world this is inefficient on fuel, but it's also inefficient as to travel time, because of the time it takes to accelerate from a full stop.

If, however, the signal prior to the red signal were at yellow, the fast train would be running at half-speed the whole time, nice and smoothly, without ever needing to come to a complete stop (since it wouldn't catch up to the slow train quite so quickly). This makes the whole line look both more realistic, and actually increases the throughput. Very realistic, and most helpful too in the artificially small TTD world.

aahz77 wrote:(I named 'em "slow-down signals", but maybe the native speakers can tell us the real name?):

[OT]
(maybe, but I don't think)
I think you don't really have to bother with the name of the signals.
In TTD the default signal is essentially a block signal (protecting the block behind it). Pre-signals are more of advanced signals, and named like that for whatever reason (no offense to patchdevs, it's a great feature - and we used to this name), in real life no train stops at a presignal (at least in Hungary), it's only informing the train driver that the main signal shows stop aspect or not. So do the repeaters, which are placed if the main signal can't be seen because of a curve or some obstacle.
[/OT]

Nice ide anyway.

I think it would help too, especially if it could be implemented so that a tarin could slow down before a red signal, be it because of another train, or because of no path?

Just my 2p's worth

'2p, or not 2p, that ss the question, no?