Transport Tycoon Forums

JamieLei wrote:It is true that the gates are usually down for a very long time, but there's a reason for that!

I'm actually of the agreement that where it's affordable, level crossings should be replaced with bridges and tunnels. Much safer for both the trains, and the idiots who inevitably won't stop being idiots.

Exactly! And at that particular crossing, it's fairly common for one train to pass and then another about a minute or two later. I can just imaging someone jumping over after that first train has passed, thinking it's all safe.

And yes, the idiots will always find a way, but hopefully it'll cut down on the idiots at least a little bit.

http://raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?fi ... sholme.pdf

Say no more.

Dave Worley wrote:http://raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?fi ... sholme.pdf

Say no more.

Page 7, point 8: Following the accident, Network Rail twice made an emergency broadcast to all trains in the area instructing them to stop. A train approaching the accident on the other track did not receive the emergency broadcasts. The severity of consequences of this accident may have been different had the driver of the approaching train not seen the obstruction or the warning from the other train’s driver in sufficient time to stop.

Oh yeah, that's good! Makes me feel safe...

GurraJG wrote:

Dave Worley wrote:http://raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?fi ... sholme.pdf

Say no more.

Page 7, point 8: Following the accident, Network Rail twice made an emergency broadcast to all trains in the area instructing them to stop. A train approaching the accident on the other track did not receive the emergency broadcasts. The severity of consequences of this accident may have been different had the driver of the approaching train not seen the obstruction or the warning from the other train’s driver in sufficient time to stop.

Oh yeah, that's good! Makes me feel safe...

You wouldn't have an incident like this on a busy high-speed line because any crossing on a high-speed line is generally full gates.

There was actually no need for the all-stop to be broadcast as the linespeed doesn't require it.

This crossing is of the AOCL (Automatic Open Crossing Locally-Monitored) type.

Railway regulations state that a driver must stop short of the crossing unless it is clear. Therefore the driver would be fully aware the crossing wasn't clear from the sighting point at the white light.

From the footnote on page 7:

1 AOCL: Approaching trains automatically start the signal sequence to stop road traffic and audible warning devices to sound. The crossing is open to road and rail as its approaches have neither gates nor barriers. Train drivers monitor the crossing locally and stop short of it unless they see that (i) the crossing is clear and (ii) the signal shows a flashing white light, indicating that the crossing equipment is functioning correctly.

If you read the report fully:

In 2008 there were fourteen railway fatalities involving members of the public,
not including those due to trespass or suicide. Eleven fatalities occurred on level
crossings and involved one car driver and ten pedestrians. Of the remainder, two
fatalities occurred through falls from bridges and one through electrocution.

In 2008, there were almost 7000 level crossings of many different types on
Network Rail infrastructure, of which 120 were automatic open locally monitored
crossings. While collisions between trains and road vehicles on crossings are
rare, they account for more than a third of the total train accident risk, with most
collisions occurring because of crossing user error.

Nearly all due to user error, actually, but how does one forgive the deaths of two people in the incident on the Welsh Marches when the barriers just didn't come down?

Dave Worley wrote:

GurraJG wrote:

Dave Worley wrote:http://raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?fi ... sholme.pdf

Say no more.

Page 7, point 8: Following the accident, Network Rail twice made an emergency broadcast to all trains in the area instructing them to stop. A train approaching the accident on the other track did not receive the emergency broadcasts. The severity of consequences of this accident may have been different had the driver of the approaching train not seen the obstruction or the warning from the other train’s driver in sufficient time to stop.

Oh yeah, that's good! Makes me feel safe...

You wouldn't have an incident like this on a busy high-speed line because any crossing on a high-speed line is generally full gates.

There was actually no need for the all-stop to be broadcast as the linespeed doesn't require it.

True, but even if there was no need for it to be broadcast, it's a bit worrying if it wasn't received.

Dave Worley wrote:Nearly all due to user error, actually, but how does one forgive the deaths of two people in the incident on the Welsh Marches when the barriers just didn't come down?

Could it come down to the 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality of some engineers?

Of course, in the end then, this comes down to the question "how much does one value a human life"? Considering how rare such incidents are, is it worth spending potentially billions to replace every last level crossing? It sucks, but the fact is, accidents do and will happen, and you'll never be able to eliminate them entirely.

That's not to say I don't think anything should be done at all, though. If there are incidents such as the one Dave mentioned where barriers didn't come down at all, they should definitely be look at and sorted, and in other cases where signage/warnings signals are insufficient, I think they should sorted out too. But it's completely impractical to eliminate level crossings entirely, and while it is tragic that accidents should occur, there's only so much one can do to stop them.

orudge wrote:Of course, in the end then, this comes down to the question "how much does one value a human life"? Considering how rare such incidents are, is it worth spending potentially billions to replace every last level crossing? It sucks, but the fact is, accidents do and will happen, and you'll never be able to eliminate them entirely.

That's not to say I don't think anything should be done at all, though. If there are incidents such as the one Dave mentioned where barriers didn't come down at all, they should definitely be look at and sorted, and in other cases where signage/warnings signals are insufficient, I think they should sorted out too. But it's completely impractical to eliminate level crossings entirely, and while it is tragic that accidents should occur, there's only so much one can do to stop them.

What I think should be done is eliminate all level crossings on the most busy lines. On certain lines it obviously won't be feasible, but I think that maintenance and updating equipment should be properly done on all level crossings, no matter how small or underused a line is.

welshdragon wrote:

Dave Worley wrote:Nearly all due to user error, actually, but how does one forgive the deaths of two people in the incident on the Welsh Marches when the barriers just didn't come down?

Could it come down to the 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality of some engineers?

But it was broke. And I don't think you should talk about the very hard-working NR staff in that way, tbh.

True, but even if there was no need for it to be broadcast, it's a bit worrying if it wasn't received.

The train approaching was 4Q08 Serco test train - which would have been a class 31. Not excusing the fact it wasn't working, but it'd make sense, since their low usage means they'd rarely receive broadcasts over the NRN, so it would be hard to recognise the NRN was broken. It may also have broken on that trip.

What I think should be done is eliminate all level crossings on the most busy lines. On certain lines it obviously won't be feasible, but I think that maintenance and updating equipment should be properly done on all level crossings, no matter how small or underused a line is.

Most crossings on the busiest lines HAVE been eliminated. There are now NO crossings on the West Coast Main Line's trunk route (the final level crossing on the Rugby-Birmingham-Stafford Line at Tipton has - of this year - been removed, there are some crossings on the Colwich Jn-Manchester route). There are a couple of crossings on the East Coast, but these are full barrier crossings and pose a very low threat.

If we convert all half-barrier crossings to full-barrier crossings, for a fraction of the price of eliminating crossings altogether, we would greatly reduce the number of accidents caused by zig-zagging the barriers. Pedestrians who leap the barriers are just idiots - and no amount of removing the level crossings will stop people like these being injured or killed.

Dave Worley wrote:Most crossings on the busiest lines HAVE been eliminated. There are now NO crossings on the West Coast Main Line's trunk route (the final level crossing on the Rugby-Birmingham-Stafford Line at Tipton has - of this year - been removed, there are some crossings on the Colwich Jn-Manchester route). There are a couple of crossings on the East Coast, but these are full barrier crossings and pose a very low threat.

What are you defining as the "trunk route"? I'm almost certain that the Hest Bank level crossing is still there, I've been over it enough times, and I saw it not that long ago...
There's another in Bolton-le-Sands a few miles north too...

Those are on very minor roads and full barrier IIRC though...

JGR wrote:

Dave Worley wrote:Most crossings on the busiest lines HAVE been eliminated. There are now NO crossings on the West Coast Main Line's trunk route (the final level crossing on the Rugby-Birmingham-Stafford Line at Tipton has - of this year - been removed, there are some crossings on the Colwich Jn-Manchester route). There are a couple of crossings on the East Coast, but these are full barrier crossings and pose a very low threat.

What are you defining as the "trunk route"? I'm almost certain that the Hest Bank level crossing is still there, I've been over it enough times, and I saw it not that long ago...
There's another in Bolton-le-Sands a few miles north too...

Those are on very minor roads and full barrier IIRC though...

In which case I stand corrected - I wasn't counting north of Lancaster really... Poor of me.

There used to be a crossing where you pressed a button to raise the barriers yourself (if a train wasn't approaching) where a very minor road crossed the WCML between Glasgow and Carlisle, north of Beattock I think. Never went over it, but used to travel past it a lot as it was on a sideroad just off the A74. Long gone now, I think they took it out in the mid 1990s when the road was diverted for the M74 upgrading. Anyone know if there are still any push button crossings in that style left? Perhaps that could be a solution for some dangerous but relatively minor locations?

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5269.aspx#uwc-mwl

It was eliminated as part of a scheme to eliminate the user element of public crossings - still applies to private users.

Network Rail are doing this:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/ ... Policy.pdf

The GWML still has A LOT of crossings including those with half-barriers, I can think of 2 within about a mile of each other near Taunton (Victory & Bradford crossings)... Victory is well-sighted and low-use (except with tourists in summer heading to the Victory Inn- a risk factor in itself) but Bradford crossing is obscured to road users by high hedgerows, bends, and awkward cant of the railway.

kingmush360 wrote:He may be a trainspotter, but he didn't spot that one coming though!

Haha! Best post ever.

I saw that happen to this poor family at Gatwick where a platform narrows. Eveyone on the platform went very very quiet for a few seconds afterward.

They should blow their horns! (Oh it did that time).

BUMP!!

It appears the French train drivers also engage in spotter-spotting! Proof:

That looks shopped!