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Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 08:33
by Kevo00
athanasios wrote:
Another pseudo-statistic. No my friend things aren't measured that way. There are major flaws here:
How many people do have the luxury of internet at home to vote there? The poor hardworking ones do not even have an idea about that webpage, not to mention that many may not even know what is a webpage. Just another survey where the majority voting are wasting their dad's money in an internet cafe. The real way to make a survey is by asking people either on the road or by phone. And still it won't be a statistic. It will be just a survey.
To find out if a city is expensive or cheap you have to do 2 things:
a: Find out what is the average salary of the inhabitants (excluding very rich ones).
b. Find out what is the average price of various products and services in that city.
c: Compare the buying value of the salary (after excluding taxes) of a citizen of town x with that of a citizen in town z.
Errrr no. This is not a survey in the sense that they asked people to vote on the internet. Actually it is much closer to the methodology you propose. Re-read the website, particularly the bit at the bottom where it tells you what the methodology was, before ranting about imaginary people wasting their dad's money in an internet cafe. By the way, last time I went to an internet cafe, it was mostly full of 'hardworking' people emailing home.
City Mayors wrote:Methodology
The cost of a weighted shopping basket geared to Western European consumer habits containing 122 goods and services including rent.
Weighted meaning that the different products in the basket were calculated in the proportion to which people are likely to pay for them out of their income.
Incidentally, the related page ranking the 150 richest cities by GDP also shows Athens as 70th in the world.
Rdrdrdrd, I don't get your argument. Can you please tell us why you think spending less money (or no money) on public goods and banning insurance would help stimulate economic growth? I don't get it. If you close parks and schools, property values will collapse for starters.
As for McCain, actually I don't think his policies are bad but he has saddled himself with a mad gun-nut candidate for VP who doesn't appeal to anyone but Republicans. Also he suffers from the problem that the previous Republican govts were too divisive in trying to govern for the 'good people' who actually constitute a minority in the US, albeit a very loud one. I don't see why Republicans are scared of Democrats banning guns, because banning guns in the US would be like banning cars, television, or the internet - extreme and political suicide.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 14:23
by welshdragon
if public services were cut and insurance removed, then it would have a serious effect on the whole of society, no longer can Joe Bloggs drive comfortably knowing that he has insurance, and if he was to bump Mrs Smith's car then a quick swap of insurance details would be required, oh no, it could lead to great divisions within communities and possibly cause a huge rift in society, those who have lots of money behind them can be safe in the knowledge that they can throw money at it to go away, but the family (mother,father, 2 children) living in the terraced house would be on bare minimum, as the wages would only barely cover the children's health care and schooling.
In short: cut public services, grab your carving knife, and start slicing society.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 16:31
by rdrdrdrd
rdrdrdrd wrote:We are each entitled to our opinions, and I regret nothing.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 19:08
by Kevo00
rdrdrdrd wrote:rdrdrdrd wrote:We are each entitled to our opinions, and I regret nothing.
So you aren't prepared to defend your opinions? You won't make anyone more sympathetic with that approach.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 20:17
by rdrdrdrd
rdrdrdrd wrote:rdrdrdrd wrote:We are each entitled to our opinions, and I regret nothing.
I am sick of arguing and constantly ddefending my self, I retire from this topic.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 21:18
by Kevo00
rdrdrdrd wrote:rdrdrdrd wrote:rdrdrdrd wrote:We are each entitled to our opinions, and I regret nothing.
I am sick of arguing and constantly ddefending my self, I retire from this topic.
But you only made 2 substantive posts surely...
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 21:25
by XeryusTC
So you go tell us your opinion but you are not going to defend it? If you behave like that you have no place or a right to take part in any discussion anyway
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 04 Nov 2008 22:27
by dunbrine47
XeryusTC wrote:So you go tell us your opinion but you are not going to defend it? If you behave like that you have no place or a right to take part in any discussion anyway
Im a going to have to agree with him.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 05 Nov 2008 00:09
by athanasios
Kevo00 wrote:City Mayors wrote:Methodology
The cost of a weighted shopping basket geared to Western European consumer habits containing 122 goods and services including rent.
Weighted meaning that the different products in the basket were calculated in the proportion to which people are likely to pay for them out of their income.
Incidentally, the related page ranking the 150 richest cities by GDP also shows Athens as 70th in the world.
I have seen dozens of programs on the TV where they compare prices of products. Same product same brand same Super Market.
And I do not want to say that Athens is the worst city in the world but it is pretty bad here. I compare Athens and Greece with the rest of EU cities and countries.
Also there are other factors to take into consideration. In developing countries goods in department stores and Super Markets are very expensive to buy compared to the salaries. May I add that those stores are almost empty? People prefer local traditional markets where everything is far more cheaper. Still way more expensive than in developed countries.
So you have waves of immigrants from developing countries to Europe and USA. Now come ask these immigrants here in Athens if they are satisfied. Their dream is to go to London or US and Canada. Why? Because they have relatives there who tell them how much they earn and how much better it is to live there. Here there is unemployment or the alternative of getting employed illegally with ridiculously low salaries. Add to that the cost of living and it makes it a nightmare.
All those surveys are mere garbage and I insist on that. The real proof are the dwindling communities of immigrants in this city. OK Bangladeshi and Paki communities may be increasing as there is a huge pool to draw from. For them it is enough to come and do mean jobs (like washing car windows at traffic lights) to earn their daily bowl of rice and sent a few Euro to their family back home. They were hungry in their countries and they lack proper education. It is shocking to know that the majority cannot even properly read their own language. But other communities (mostly African) who have some education and try to make something (merchants, open a shop) there is no future here and they are slowly moving to other countries.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 05 Nov 2008 15:58
by JamieLei
athanasios wrote:In developing countries goods in department stores and Super Markets are very expensive to buy compared to the salaries. May I add that those stores are almost empty? People prefer local traditional markets where everything is far more cheaper. Still way more expensive than in developed countries.
Errrr - no actually. Tesco is one of the most popular retailers in Malaysia. Supermarkets are hugely popular in Indonesia. And in India, the poorest flock to supermarkets to pick out the loss-leaders. Supermarkets are as popular in developing countries as they are in the west!
And before you start, I've been to two out those countries to experience that, and the third I read in the a pretty reputable newspaper.
Where DO you get these notions from? I really want to know! Like - fair enough if these are your opinions, but you're trying to present them as verifiable hard facts, and educate the rest of us with them!
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 05 Nov 2008 18:06
by Ameecher
athanasios wrote:In developing countries goods in department stores and Super Markets are very expensive to buy compared to the salaries. May I add that those stores are almost empty? People prefer local traditional markets where everything is far more cheaper. Still way more expensive than in developed countries.
Zimbabwe isn't the only developing country.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 05 Nov 2008 22:48
by Kevo00
I agree with JameiLei and Ameecher about the Supermarkets in developing countries - certainly Asia is taking to supermarkets like crazy, partly because there are savings in shopping there not just in actual prices but also in time, through not having to haggle. Mind you you also think Pakistani and Bangladesh immigrants are happy with a bowl of rice a day - not my expirience of these industrious peoples.
I point out again that these are not surveys, but actual studies carried out by professional people who know what they are doing. Immigrants will find life difficult wherever they go. Here in London immigrants are also working in the informal sector with low pay or unemployed as well as working, although they can also take advantage of the relative shortage of labour in the UK (though this is changing right now). The cost of living in London is higher than Athens and it is probably harder to survive here if you have no money (though we do have free healthcare, don't know about Greece) - what is different as far as migrants are concerned about the UK is that it is seen as a more welcoming society than continental Europe with the advantage of being English speaking, which is good if you know some English. I would imagine very few people in Asia learn any Greek for example, nor can read Greek, so it is probably as much cultural factors like this rather than purely economic factors that make migrants consider moving on to the UK. Also London has critical mass - we have people from every country in the world living here, so migrants also have the reassurance that there is likely to be some sort of community they can identify with here.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 06 Nov 2008 15:53
by jonty-comp
Well, the interest rate dropped by a record 1.5% today, signalling that the Bank of England certainly knows there's DARK TIMES ahead!
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 05:19
by athanasios
But here it went up. Thieves.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 11:27
by Kevo00
athanasios wrote:But here it went up. Thieves.
Lets be honest, the Bank of England is only dropping the rate because it doesn't know what else to do.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 16:38
by JamieLei
Kevo00 wrote: Lets be honest, the Bank of England is only dropping the rate because it doesn't know what else to do.
Well when you have every newspaper, TV program, economist and village idiot demanding it, you know it's needed
(And also because inflation is dropping due to recession anyway ^_^)
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 06:32
by athanasios
Let's wait and see what will happen when unemployment skyrockets. Government here is talking about creating new job's by subsiding the salaries. So you can understand that if they speak in such a way the problem will be very serious.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 14:00
by Kevo00
Well, in the longer run there is going to have to be a rethink of what western countries can now do that gives them a competitive advantage, because the old 'selling houses to each other' model wasn't really working. Responsible capitalism is the way ahead now, and banks will have to turn to a relatively narrower field of operation.
Re: THe Economy
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 14:03
by JamieLei
There was a time were banks were highly prudent, and kept stores of money in case people wanted to withdraw money. Prehaps we need to go back to those days, instead of lending whatever banks have, and then inter-bank borrowing whenever withdrawals are requested.