US Set Development Thread

[RailJade]

...Milwaukee Road EF-3 Boxcabs as well? Below we actually see an EF-2 rolling through the Montana mountains with a freight in tow. Heading the other way is a Bi-polar on passenger.

The Milwaukee Road boxcabs were the most numerous in the Northwest, were about the same size as the EL-A and go well with the rest of the electrics. They were also very long lived and saw service from 1915-the 1960's. I've also got a short "bobtail" B-unit for consists over 2 units.

You buy two units, you get 2 A's, after that, any additionals are B's, much like the prototype and the F7 currently

I hope that the EF-3 Boxcabs are going to make an apperance into the next version of the set. I feel that there should be more electric powered locomotives for freight duty .

[krtaylor]

1. I have no objection to using the EF-3 Boxcabs in the Arctic in place of the ones we've got. I see that as basically just a livery change, functionally they're pretty similar.

2. I'm staying out of the debate over the diesels.

3. ALP-7 was intentionally overrated because we needed an electric freight loco. IRL freight was banned from the NEC in 1982, but we didn't want to force that in the game. I wasn't aware of the longevity of the E60C. When that was pointed out, the need for an overpowered ALP-7 was removed. So we can set it to its proper specs. We could actually remove it if we wanted, does it ever get used? My games generally are happy with the AEM7 and then the HHP8.

4. Let's leave Metra as it is, I'm quite happy with the way it looks. It really is an ugly paint scheme, but that's realistic.

5. I looked at the reference for Y6s, and I found that the Y6, Y6a, and Y6b all have identical stats! So let's use the name of Y6b since it's more famous. They also don't have specific dates for their manufacture that I found. I haven't gotten to that point in my game. If uzurpator and Dan both agree that an adjustment should be made, I won't object.

6. The Shay seems to inspire strong passions. It is unfortunately not yet in the Arctic, and that's where my test game is. When it's added, I'll use it for its intended purpose - going up the side of a mountain. If it can do that profitably, and usefully, then I don't care what the game stats are. If it can't, then I don't care what the real stats are, it has to be goosed. I do agree that the HP doesn't need to be high, after all its top speed should be 20mph max, and 16mph is more realistic. The TE is all that's important.

7. If Dan is using twin Consolidations to haul drag freight, then yes, maybe they are a little strong. I figure they should be able to handle three, possibly four cars, on the flat, with max of one hill. More than that and they should quickly become unwieldy and need replacement with a Mikado. Adjust accordingly, allowing for freighttrains 5 of course.

8. I refer loco weights to Dan for comment.

9. MBTA. Thanks for the sprites, but IRL the purple stripe is brighter. Can you adjust that? Also, there's a control-car end for the trailing car, kind of like the Metra has. We need MBTA bilevels as well. And if you're wanting to be thorough, we need MBTA depowered Budd RDCs, GP9, and F/E.

[DanMacK]

1. I have no objection to using the EF-3 Boxcabs in the Arctic in place of the ones we've got. I see that as basically just a livery change, functionally they're pretty similar.

Precisely, so it wouldn't use any further ID's. It'll be ready for the next release

2. I'm staying out of the debate over the diesels.

Good idea

3. ALP-7 was intentionally overrated because we needed an electric freight loco. IRL freight was banned from the NEC in 1982, but we didn't want to force that in the game. I wasn't aware of the longevity of the E60C. When that was pointed out, the need for an overpowered ALP-7 was removed. So we can set it to its proper specs. We could actually remove it if we wanted, does it ever get used? My games generally are happy with the AEM7 and then the HHP8.

I can't comment on this as after the 1990's, any electric freight I have is switched to diesels

4. Let's leave Metra as it is, I'm quite happy with the way it looks. It really is an ugly paint scheme, but that's realistic.

Metra's scheme isn't that bad. But we could always do the Regional Transit Authoroty scheme on the E8's to match the red and brown striped bi-levels I say leave the Metra in for the moment.

5. I looked at the reference for Y6s, and I found that the Y6, Y6a, and Y6b all have identical stats! So let's use the name of Y6b since it's more famous. They also don't have specific dates for their manufacture that I found. I haven't gotten to that point in my game. If uzurpator and Dan both agree that an adjustment should be made, I won't object.

Y6 or Y6b, to be honest, really doesn't matter either way to me

6. The Shay seems to inspire strong passions. It is unfortunately not yet in the Arctic, and that's where my test game is. When it's added, I'll use it for its intended purpose - going up the side of a mountain. If it can do that profitably, and usefully, then I don't care what the game stats are. If it can't, then I don't care what the real stats are, it has to be goosed. I do agree that the HP doesn't need to be high, after all its top speed should be 20mph max, and 16mph is more realistic. The TE is all that's important.

Well, shays were extremely specific, but they should be able to andle 5-10 cars at about 10MPH up grade with a freighttrains setting of 5+ I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I'll see myself.

7. If Dan is using twin Consolidations to haul drag freight, then yes, maybe they are a little strong. I figure they should be able to handle three, possibly four cars, on the flat, with max of one hill. More than that and they should quickly become unwieldy and need replacement with a Mikado. Adjust accordingly, allowing for freighttrains 5 of course.

Well, double headed on 8-10 cars isn't that bad, but they should slow considerably on hills, now they barely feel them. They should be dropped in stats a bit, I agree.

8. I refer loco weights to Dan for comment.

Why me...? I'll look into it

9. MBTA. Thanks for the sprites, but IRL the purple stripe is brighter. Can you adjust that? Also, there's a control-car end for the trailing car, kind of like the Metra has. We need MBTA bilevels as well. And if you're wanting to be thorough, we need MBTA depowered Budd RDCs, GP9, and F/E.

Remember, there was no "MBTA" E, they were just PC black. As far as the RDC's go, they'd just be alternates for the passenger car, and would have no stats. I'll do those. The GP40-2WH is also forthcoming

[krtaylor]

Well, shays were extremely specific, but they should be able to andle 5-10 cars at about 10MPH up grade with a freighttrains setting of 5+ I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I'll see myself.

I agree completely with the specification. Any settings which can meet that spec, are agree able to me.

Remember, there was no "MBTA" E, they were just PC black. As far as the RDC's go, they'd just be alternates for the passenger car, and would have no stats. I'll do those. The GP40-2WH is also forthcoming

RDCs - you're correct, no "actual" RDCs. They appear as passenger cars behind MBTA GP9s. That should be the default appearance when a GP9 is used to haul passenger cars.
No E - yes, that's true, they're Fs. Whatever. Same body shape.
And the GP9s were perfectly good for passenger haulage, even without a steam generator - they hauled the depowered RDCs, which heated themselves.
You want the bilevels and cab-control ends?
Remember, the purple is quite bright - not at all black. It should clearly be purple and not any other color.

http://home.comcast.net/~railimages/mbta.html

[DanMacK]

Re: Diesels in the 1980's/90's... Here's what we have...

SD40-2 - Intro 1967
C30-7 - Intro 1972
GP38-2 - Intro 1974
F40PH - Intro 1976
B39-8 - Intro 1984
SD70MAC - Intro 1992
AC6000CW - Intro 1994

Currently there's a large gap between new units from 1984-1992. The fact the SD40-2 was being built until 1986 offsets this a bit.

I'm thinking either an SD60 or a GP60.

Personally, I'd say SD60 because they were relatively widespread, although have the GP60 (ATSF and SP) for tropic.

CSX (Both), Conrail (Both), NS (Both), BN (SD60M), SOO Line (Both) and Union Pacific (SD60M) all own SD60's (All. Since we have a large UP presence in the tropics already, I'd say keep the SD40-2 and SD45, and add the GP60 and GP60M for Tropic. Use the SD60/60M to fill the void in the mid 80's.

Sound good?

[krtaylor]

Currently there's a large gap between new units from 1984-1992.

The F40PH is really a passenger loco, so the gap between 1974 - 1984 is even larger.

One new diesel every 10 years I think is quite enough. Of course there has to always be at least one available for purchase at any given time.

I'll keep an eye out for this "gap" during playtesting, but I've never had a problem before. The variety during the diesel era is not as great as during steam, but that's to be expected.

[DanMacK]

True. Also re: the F40PH... I think we should derate it to 2300HP, that's all they use pulling a (passenger) train anyway.

The SD40-2 should be available to 1986. That said, I realize we will end up with some similar locos, but that's inevitable, it's the same in the real world, GM or GE...

GE had the first 4000HP loco out with the C40-8 in 1985, currently we have the B39-8E.

GM - GP50, GP60/M, SD60/M, SD70/M,
GE - B36-7, B39-7E, B40-8/W, C40-8/W, AC4400CW/C44-9W

There are the choices as they currently stand. The SD60 is relatively easy to do, as is the GP60 really... The standard cab Dash 8 shouldn't be too hard either, but we are going to end up with several locos around the 3800-4400 HP range... Currently there are 2 (B39 and SD70M)

re: the SD70MAC vs. C44-9W debate...

SD70MAC MTE: 609 kN, 4,000HP, Introduced: 1992
C44-9W MTE: 632 kN 4,400HP, Introduced: 1994

I'd say they're far enough apart to make a difference, plus IRL you see GM and GE mixes all the time... why not in TTD? We've got enough units throughout the late 60's, early 70's. I'd say we try and average a new unit about every 6-8 years after 1975

Uzurpator, I await your suggestions on this

[DanMacK]

Another "bug" if you will

Covered Hoppers should be refittable to goods in all 3 climates. The white car and the brown one should only be used for goods, the green one for all, the brown/yellow, red and blue ones should be grains/food only.

[DanMacK]

RDCs - you're correct, no "actual" RDCs. They appear as passenger cars behind MBTA GP9s. That should be the default appearance when a GP9 is used to haul passenger cars.

Remember, the purple is quite bright - not at all black. It should clearly be purple and not any other color.

http://home.comcast.net/~railimages/mbta.html

Actually, back in the 70's, the RDC's were powered apparently

That said, in repainting my RDC sprite for MBTA, it got an extensive redraw as well. Below is the MBTA result. I'll post the revised "generic company colour" one later.

[uzurpator]

Regarding diesels.

c44-9w would be about 491 kN - this is DC loco after all.

Anyhoo - methinks we need 4 axle freight for 1974-1984 and 6 axle GE for 1984-1992

Regarding alp-7

this loco _IS_ 7000 hp...

[DanMacK]

4 axle freight for 1970-1980... GP40-2 I'd say. It's popular enough, and could also be used for krtaylor's MBTA GP40-2WH, just stick coaches behind it. He's got the specs for it already (both locos)

re: the 6 axle GE, I'd say the C40-8 standard cab. Shouldn't be too hard to lengthen that B39-8E

Now, here's the revised RDC sprites

[uzurpator]

Three C&NW C40-8 hauling ore train to one of Chicago steel mills. Probably will get handed over to E&JE soon.

[DanMacK]

Nice one!

And here are a pair of Alaska Railroad GP40-2's with a GP38-2 spliced in between hauling coal. The coal is from the Usibelli coal mine near Healy and is bound for Seward, AK and then on to Korea. Was gonna save all the Alaska stuff, but here's a taster

[Aegir]

Cool stuff DanMacK.

[krtaylor]

Actually, back in the 70's, the RDC's were powered apparently

Well, naturally, they were built that way for the B&M. But apparently MBTA couldn't maintain them, so as they broke, they left them, and used the locos they'd also inherited. So I'd say we don't need to worry about that, unless you want MBTA as an alternate Budd livery. I don't think people can see the difference though, so we should just use them behind the GP9 and maybe F.

[RailJade]

This is just a question that pops into mind regarding the list of locomotives that are adavable in the set.

Is there a Dash-9 Locomotive that is used by the BNSF. If there is, does it go by another name? If there is not, which closest relative to the Dash family to be used as the Dash-9.

[DanMacK]

Currently it's the AC6000, but that's currently under debate as BNSF has none.

[Oz]

Hi all! Dan, those trains are looking great as usual. Nice to see the MBTA get a little work done. I get to see those guys chugging down the line just about every day. IF the tram idea ever gets off of the ground, it would be great to see some of the "T" trolleys of the Green Line.

Been working on the GCT a bit. Wanted to let you guys take a look, and feedback would be greatly appreciated as always.

Cheers!

[SHADOW-XIII]

nice

[DanMacK]

Outstanding!!! That is beyond gorgeous man!

Now the next question... how do we code it

On another note Oz, did you get those in-progress grain elevators I PM'd you?