ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[wallyweb]

May be you should create an example?
For http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... TownVector or some other vector?

Before I create an example there are some questions about ECSVTITownVector and the Tourist Centers:
1. They all share the following positioning conditions:
- One Center type per map
- Build > 31 tiles from other types
- Build outside townzones 1-4
- Build > 3 tiles from desert tile
- Build on terraformed land
2. But three of them also have unique conditions:
- Goodrich Castle - Build > 2 tiles from water
- Palenque - Build > 1 tile from water and Build in forest where 3 tiles radius are rain forest
- Casino resort - Build > 1 tile from desert tile and Build on coasts
3. Is it possible to show each of the centers in the "Fund New Industry" and "Industry Generation" windows as is done with the industries in the other vectors?
4. What is the Boarding House?

Boarding House?

boarding_house.png (1.73 KiB) Viewed 3286 times

5. It can't be this because this does not require slopes:

What is this? An Inn?

tourist_center.png (6.43 KiB) Viewed 3285 times

Neither of items in 5 and 6 appear in the wiki.

[George]

May be you should create an example?
For http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... TownVector or some other vector?

Before I create an example there are some questions about ECSVTITownVector and the Tourist Centers:
1. They all share the following positioning conditions:
- One Center type per map
- Build > 31 tiles from other types
- Build outside townzones 1-4
- Build > 3 tiles from desert tile
- Build on terraformed land

to be exact.
They share only conditions 1 and 2.
Condition 3 is copied for every industry, but I can make it different for every subtype.
Condition 4 is not the global one. Palenque does not have it, Tourists resort requires only 1 tile
Condition 5 is not applied to boarding house (the 7-th subtype that is not finished yet)

2. But three of them also have unique conditions:
- Goodrich Castle - Build > 2 tiles from water

Because I was lazy to code correct shore graphics. I plan to fix it some day. The main problem is that water is different on 0 and other levels. You can test Neu Schwanstein Castle to understand what I mean.

- Palenque - Build > 1 tile from water and Build in forest where 3 tiles radius are rain forest
- Casino resort - Build > 1 tile from desert tile and Build on coasts

Did I add (or forgot to add) that Japan castle should be build 1 tile away from water? ... Forgot both to code and document it

3. Is it possible to show each of the centers in the "Fund New Industry" and "Industry Generation" windows as is done with the industries in the other vectors?

Not possible now, but I had some discussions with Csaboka, so may be it will be possible in the future. The reason to have them as one industry is the 37 industry types limit (and 35 are in use).

4. What is the Boarding House?

Unfinished tourist center. It became public in one of the versions because I forgot to delete it from my test version and then decided to leave it to prevent problems in the save where it was generated.

5. It can't be this because this does not require slopes:

wrong error message. Should be flat map. Will be fixed.

Neither of items in 5 and 6 appear in the wiki.

what is item 6?

[edited]GRF fixed.

[wallyweb]

3. Is it possible to show each of the centers in the "Fund New Industry" and "Industry Generation" windows as is done with the industries in the other vectors?

Not possible now, but I had some discussions with Csaboka, so may be it will be possible in the future. The reason to have them as one industry is the 37 industry types limit (and 35 are in use).

ok ... so you need one generic description where "one size fits all". try this?:

Code: Select all

"Please refer to http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSTVTouristsCentre for Positioning/Location Conditions."

Yes ... before you ask, the player might have to exit his game to get to the internet, however if the player is playing in the Windows mode this is not a problem, and yes again, the player will have to exercise his typing skills (Unless he has properly bookmarked the page ).

4. What is the Boarding House?

Unfinished tourist center. It became public in one of the versions because I forgot to delete it from my test version and then decided to leave it to prevent problems in the save where it was generated.

You should put it back but change the name to "Bed & Breakfast".
If the building in the second picture was your Boarding House, it is a bit big for a Boarding House or a Bed & Breakfast. For that building "Hostel" or "Inn" would be a more appropriate description.

Neither of items in 5 and 6 appear in the wiki.

what is item 6?

It is an oops! How about?:

Neither of items in 4 and 5 appear in the wiki.

[George]

4. What is the Boarding House?

Unfinished tourist center. It became public in one of the versions because I forgot to delete it from my test version and then decided to leave it to prevent problems in the save where it was generated.

You should put it back but change the name to "Bed & Breakfast".
If the building in the second picture was your Boarding House,

Yes, it is

it is a bit big for a Boarding House or a Bed & Breakfast. For that building "Hostel" or "Inn" would be a more appropriate description.

What's the difference between Hostel/Inn and Hotel?

Neither of items in 5 and 6 appear in the wiki.

what is item 6?

It is an oops! How about?:

Neither of items in 4 and 5 appear in the wiki.

4. It's not their time yet
5. fixed.

P.S. I'm getting the filling that you are the only advanced user on the forum Are other users do not use ECS, are noobs or simply are not interested in progress of the set?

[Axlrose]

I am a "noob" when it comes to this set since I recently began dabbling in what it has to offer. So from my "noobish" experiences, here are what I perceive are pros and cons to the set.

Pro: At first glance, it appears that the whole is quite complex with each system interlocking with another. But further study shows that each graphical set can stand on its own.

Con: Short of starting a new game, adding these sets into an existing game causes that game to ~break~ certain layouts. For my example, I had a food processing plant accepting numerous train cars of fish. This new set removed the fish from that plant and placed it into another industry. Short of reworking the layouts, my current game suddenly goes sour.

Pro: It has a realistic approach since one industry should not be able to do it all.

Con: Industries have their high and low production moments. It appears that unless one constantly supplies the required materials, the industry can fail. Again, in my game, those same fish trains arrive on a two to four month schedule, thus I would have months with no production and thus dropped production.

Con: Perhaps I have been spoiled with the simplicity of years' worth of patch additions. But playing the meta-game (that is, having to remove myself from the game) to research what exact ground patterns are needed to build various industries takes away from the game. Again, using my fish trains as an example, I figured I needed a cannery industry that requires flat land near water. I found a nice four by four square area near the old food processing plant and went to build the plant. Unfortunately the game refused since two of those squares were not perfectly flat, but gently sloped next to a small lake. So short of filling in part of the lake (and taking away part of the natural beauty of the game), that industry would not work there. But any other old game industry could be built while the build-on-slope addition would create the required wall without having to fill in the lake.

Again, I just started dabbling with this set so perhaps my comments above are wrong. Yet sometimes when I want to just relax and play a game, I do not feel like "working" at the game just to see an accomplishment. I just want to click-click-click and watch the little graphics roll.

Thanks for reading.

[wallyweb]

What's the difference between Hostel/Inn and Hotel?

Hotels are usually a bit larger and offer better facilities and services and are the most expensive to stay at.
A Resort is a hotel that services tourists and is usually located in vacation areas.
A Spa is a Resort that offers special health related features.
An Inn can be as large as a hotel but is usually smaller and has basic facilities and few services and are moderately to low priced to stay at.
Motels (aka Motor Hotel or Motor Inn) are like Inns, but are usually built on one level with each room having direct access to the parking lot where guests can park their cars directly in front of the door to their room.
Cabins are like motels but each room is in its own small building.
Hostels are usually very basic with very basic facilities and no services. They are very inexpensive (cheap) to stay at. (Traveling students on a budget and orudges like to stay at these).
A Bed & Breakfast is usually a part of someone's large home and like the name says you get a bed at night, breakfast with the family, and then you are out for the day.
A rooming house is for long term tenants and it is like a small apartment building and it is usually a part of someone's large home. (I live in a rooming house)

P.S. I'm getting the filling that you are the only advanced user on the forum Are other users do not use ECS, are noobs or simply are not interested in progress of the set?

Go to the screenshots section and you will see lots of your ECS industries being used. Most players are like people who own cars ... They want the newest, biggest, shiniest and fastest one available but they have absolutely no idea as to what is under the hood.
Oh yes ... You may have noticed, they also complain the loudest when their new car breaks down, usually because they did not read the manual or they were driving like an idiot on his way to his own funeral.

Oop! I forgot one:
Funeral Homes where the rooms are very small and very expensive but the tenants tend to stay for a very long time.

[George]

What's the difference between Hostel/Inn and Hotel?

Hotels are usually a bit larger and offer better facilities and services and are the most expensive to stay at.
An Inn can be as large as a hotel but is usually smaller and has basic facilities and few services and are moderately to low priced to stay at.
Motels (aka Motor Hotel or Motor Inn) are like Inns, but are usually built on one level with each room having direct access to the parking lot where guests can park their cars directly in front of the door to their room.
Cabins are like motels but each room is in its own small building.
Hostels are usually very basic with very basic facilities and no services. They are very inexpensive (cheap) to stay at. (Traveling students on a budget and orudges like to stay at these).
A Bed & Breakfast is usually a part of someone's large home and like the name says you get a bed at night, breakfast with the family, and then you are out for the day.
A rooming house is for long term tenants and it is like a small apartment building and it is usually a part of someone's large home. (I live in a rooming house)
Oop! I forgot one:
Funeral Homes where the rooms are very small and very expensive but the tenants tend to stay for a very long time.

Well, did I understand it right that the big building in a town that provides you the place where you can live for some time (usually 2-5 days) is a hotel? I mean the thing we have in TTRS for example. Usually you stay in a hotel when you come to the town during business trip/mission.
Then how should I call the place outside the town or in health resort town on the beach, where I go on vacations (2 weeks)? Tourist resort? I used the name "boarding house" but looks like I have mistaken.

P.S. I'm getting the filling that you are the only advanced user on the forum Are other users do not use ECS, are noobs or simply are not interested in progress of the set?

Go to the screenshots section and you will see lots of your ECS industries being used. Most players are like people who own cars ... They want the newest, biggest, shiniest and fastest one available but they have absolutely no idea as to what is under the hood.
Oh yes ... You may have noticed, they also complain the loudest when their new car breaks down, usually because they did not read the manual or they were driving like an idiot on his way to his own funeral.

The thing, I am speaking about - is a feedback. I want to know, what am I doing good, what am I doing bad, what should I change. But I get no feedback. I decided to divide production by 4 only because I had a look at Pikka's industries and found his stockpile sizes extremely low. But I could divide them by 2 or by 8. And I'm not sure yet about the correct sizes
This makes me a bit sad, because I fill my attempts to make them more complicated useless, because users are happy with standard behaviour where you get as much output as input at once. At least I do not get any suggestions in feedback.
For example, recently I made a steel mill with extra production possibilities (furnaces upgrade) that caused huge stockpiles (2 times higher than other industries). I supposed to get a question about their size, have a discussion about dynamic stockpile change according to the furnaces upgrade, but ... silence.
Remember a question about welding in Tourists resort? Also no feedback. Looks like no one saw it! That made me think that users do not build industries themselves nor watch their construction stages. Then I ask my self. Should I spend a month to provide this animation for these construction stages, or I should not spend time on construction at all.

I wanted to make a discussion about city buildings that accept new cargoes, but looks like it is useless - I will get no feedback.

P.S. Hope you understand me

[George]

Thanks for reading.

Thank you for a long post. Could you suggest, what should be changed?

[wallyweb]

I'm going to reply to these two questions in two posts because they are so very different.
About my descriptions in my previous post, keep in mind that the key word is "usually". The line that divides the descriptions is often very blurry.
And now for your question:

Well, did I understand it right that the big building in a town that provides you the place where you can live for some time (usually 2-5 days) is a hotel? I mean the thing we have in TTRS for example. Usually you stay in a hotel when you come to the town during business trip/mission.

Yes, that is correct.

Then how should I call the place outside the town or in health resort town on the beach, where I go on vacations (2 weeks)? Tourist resort?

I just added Resort and Spa to my definitions above. I hope that helps.

I used the name "boarding house" but looks like I have mistaken.

Yes, but it was an honest mistake. Hopefully my definitions will help.

[wallyweb]

And now for your second question:

The thing, I am speaking about - is a feedback. I want to know, what am I doing good, what am I doing bad, what should I change. But I get no feedback. I decided to divide production by 4 only because I had a look at Pikka's industries and found his stockpile sizes extremely low. But I could divide them by 2 or by 8. And I'm not sure yet about the correct sizes
This makes me a bit sad, because I fill my attempts to make them more complicated useless, because users are happy with standard behaviour where you get as much output as input at once. At least I do not get any suggestions in feedback.
For example, recently I made a steel mill with extra production possibilities (furnaces upgrade) that caused huge stockpiles (2 times higher than other industries). I supposed to get a question about their size, have a discussion about dynamic stockpile change according to the furnaces upgrade, but ... silence.

I understand your concerns.
If you look at other threads by other set designers, you will notice that the comments are rarely technical. The players are more concerned about what they can see ... the graphics. Post some bad drawings and see what happens.
They can't comment on the technical things such as production levels because they can't see them until they are in a game. When actually using the set in a game, if something does not work for them as they expected, that is when they will post their questions and comments. If they do not complain then they like your work.

Remember a question about welding in Tourists resort? Also no feedback. Looks like no one saw it! That made me think that users do not build industries themselves nor watch their construction stages. Then I ask my self. Should I spend a month to provide this animation for these construction stages, or I should not spend time on construction at all.

I remember the question about the Tourist Resort ... the Casino. I was one of those who did not find the answer. Your question would probably have been better understood if you had asked "What do think of the construction stages?"

I wanted to make a discussion about city buildings that accept new cargoes, but looks like it is useless - I will get no feedback.

State what you are suggesting or ask the question as clearly as possible. If you get no response, then assume they accept your proposal and go ahead and do it. After they have a chance to try it, that is when they will ask their questions and make their suggestions.

P.S. Hope you understand me

Yes I do understand you. It can be very frustrating sometimes, but remember, the customer will only complain if the product does not work.

[blitzkrieg]

The thing, I am speaking about - is a feedback. I want to know, what am I doing good, what am I doing bad, what should I change. But I get no feedback. I decided to divide production by 4 only because I had a look at Pikka's industries and found his stockpile sizes extremely low. But I could divide them by 2 or by 8. And I'm not sure yet about the correct sizes
This makes me a bit sad, because I fill my attempts to make them more complicated useless, because users are happy with standard behaviour where you get as much output as input at once. At least I do not get any suggestions in feedback.
For example, recently I made a steel mill with extra production possibilities (furnaces upgrade) that caused huge stockpiles (2 times higher than other industries). I supposed to get a question about their size, have a discussion about dynamic stockpile change according to the furnaces upgrade, but ... silence.

I understand your concerns.
If you look at other threads by other set designers, you will notice that the comments are rarely technical. The players are more concerned about what they can see ... the graphics. Post some bad drawings and see what happens.
They can't comment on the technical things such as production levels because they can't see them until they are in a game. When actually using the set in a game, if something does not work for them as they expected, that is when they will post their questions and comments. If they do not complain then they like your work.

Hi George
Don't get disheartened by the response especially about technical specifications. You are doing a Great Job (If I can call it a Job !!)
I guess most people don't know much about how the grf's work especially the new induatires (I too am in this group). If you want technical feed back you can appoint a few people to test it(having knowledge about technical part) . As for me i use ECS in a game as i use other grf's (just concentrating on the game not grf's) . If i had to test it, i would then just focus on the new grf or just play with the new grf (I don't think many people do that).
Also many people don't read wiki , so they donot understand how a particular industry will respond to amount of goods/cargo delivered to & transported from it.

[George]

If you want technical feed back you can appoint a few people to test it(having knowledge about technical part).

Where can I get these people?

Also many people don't read wiki , so they donot understand how a particular industry will respond to amount of goods/cargo delivered to & transported from it.

What should I do? Coping it into donotreadme file does not make much sense.

[wallyweb]

If you want technical feed back you can appoint a few people to test it(having knowledge about technical part).

Where can I get these people?

I suggest finding 2 testers for TTDPatch and two for OTTD.
You already have one for TTDPatch ... ME!
You can change the title for this thread to "ECS implementation by George: Beta Testers Needed"
Perhaps blitzkrieg is available?

Also many people don't read wiki , so they donot understand how a particular industry will respond to amount of goods/cargo delivered to & transported from it.

What should I do? Coping it into donotreadme file does not make much sense.

There is nothing much that you can do about this. Look at all the posts in the Problems section where DaleStan tells them to read the readme files. Perhaps add a note to your Download page ... "IMPORTANT - Please do not ask questions before you read the instructions in the wiki" ... with a link to your first page in the wiki.

In the first post in this thread you already have a link to your Download page.
Add another link near the top of that post "Details and Instructions for these Vectors are available here:" + link.
I think that is the best you can do.
=============================================================================
And now a testing issue:
I am designing a scenario so that I can do a proper test of your vectors and industries.
While writing a newgrf configuration using all your vectors, I noticed the following problem with ECSCPikkw.grf:
- If I load ECSCPikkw.grf anywhere except the last position, the flag for the vector in the last position turns yellow.
- If I load ECSCPikkw.grf in the last position, there are no yellow flags, but ECSCPikkw.grf has a red flag and the following error:
"ECS Construction vector by Pikkabird is incompatible with ECS Construction vector".
- If I turn off ECSConstw.grf nothing happens.
- If instead, I turn off ECSMachw.grf, the ECSCPikkw.grf error goes away and I am able to turn ECSCPikkw.grf on, even while ECSConstw.grf remains on.
- It looks like ECSCPikkw.grf is testing for the wrong vector.

[Oz]

I have to agree with Wally. It is VERY hard to find the Wiki for ECS. I mean, I know where to find it, but I'm sure that I'm in the minority. It might help to put the Wiki link in the topic title? Also, it may help to point out that not all train sets are ECS compatible.

As for the coding, I try just about every addition to the ECS vectors, and largely, yes, it makes the game a bit more challenging, but it also increases tactics of the game, which I'm interested in. But, that may not be for everyone. Again, a more comprehensive Wiki to point that not ALL vectors have to be loaded for ECS to work may be order. (Please don't ask me to do this, since I'm up to my eyeballs in graphics.)

In summary, a Wiki that directs players to compatible sets, as well how to use the included industries may be the best solution. There are bugs, but they will be sorted out by increasing the user base.

Cheers!

[athanasios]

Is not this a way too far from the town?
(But I like it as it is. I don't understand why most of your industries should be build near the cities. Often industrial zones are far from cities.)

[George]

- It looks like ECSCPikkw.grf is testing for the wrong vector.

Fixed

Is not this a way too far from the town?

Fixed

But I like it as it is. I don't understand why most of your industries should be build near the cities. Often industrial zones are far from cities.

Most? Some May be too much of them. Suggest which one should be different?

[blitzkrieg]

I suggest finding 2 testers for TTDPatch and two for OTTD.
You already have one for TTDPatch ... ME!
You can change the title for this thread to "ECS implementation by George: Beta Testers Needed"
Perhaps blitzkrieg is available?

Well I do play both TTDP & OTTD and can be a tester for both of them, however I have exams in a month & being a Doctor, wouldn't be able to do testing till the exams get over (by JAn end ).

Also many people don't read wiki , so they donot understand how a particular industry will respond to amount of goods/cargo delivered to & transported from it.

What should I do? Coping it into donotreadme file does not make much sense.

There is nothing much that you can do about this. Look at all the posts in the Problems section where DaleStan tells them to read the readme files. Perhaps add a note to your Download page ... "IMPORTANT - Please do not ask questions before you read the instructions in the wiki" ... with a link to your first page in the wiki.

In the first post in this thread you already have a link to your Download page.
Add another link near the top of that post "Details and Instructions for these Vectors are available here:" + link.
I think that is the best you can do.

Or You can add a text file (named-> IMPORTANT READ ME BEFORE USING GRF) along with the Grf's saying that for understanding how the industries work in this vector (people are mainly interested in knowing how to increase the output/ production) go to wiki(url of the wiki).You can keep the url of the main page(same text file for all vectors) or give url of specific vector (you have to just change the url, remaining text remains same).
If you do this then even a noob will know where to get information about the particular Grf.

But I like it as it is. I don't understand why most of your industries should be build near the cities. Often industrial zones are far from cities.

Most? Some May be too much of them. Suggest which one should be different?

Heavy Industires produce a lot of noise. SO they should be shifted further away.

[George]

But I like it as it is. I don't understand why most of your industries should be build near the cities. Often industrial zones are far from cities.

Most? Some May be too much of them. Suggest which one should be different?

Heavy Industires produce a lot of noise. SO they should be shifted further away.

Which are heavy?
Here, in SPb, we have 5 shipyards. And I never thought about their noise. So me doubts that noise should be taken into account.

[athanasios]

George I 'd like a bigger radius from city centre for industries. actually it should be 'x tiles' from city's limits. Cities expand and you have houses around the industries. It is not nice to transport cargo from an industry inside the city just a few tiles away and make no profit. At least in scenario editor there should not be such strict limitations.
In our city no new industries are allowed within the city. Heavy industries are allowed in industrial zones very far from the city. Refineries, ship yards, steel mill, etc are out of the city in satellite cities, and nobody wants to live there (pollution, dirt). OK, now city has expanded there too (low quality housing for workers). Consider that I need about an hour to go there from my home (1/2 hour from express/pay highway.)

[George]

George I 'd like a bigger radius from city centre for industries.

I've replaced this condition for most industries in beta 3 (brewery and shipyard are in todo list). I'm using checking town zones and zone radius instead.

actually it should be 'x tiles' from city's limits.

That means outside zone 1/zone 0? It already does. What industry are you referring to?

Cities expand and you have houses around the industries.

Farms, fruit plantations, forest are closing down at this case. Do you suggest other industries to do the same? Here in SPb the situation is the same. In the centre there is the old town. Then goes industry area (circle), than goes the next houses area, and now it again starts to create a new industry area outside houses area. The town looks like circles (one inside the other).

It is not nice to transport cargo from an industry inside the city just a few tiles away and make no profit.

Usually I provide transporting to town in the beginning when industry production is low and it would be nice to force city grow. Later, then many trains transport cargo to the factory, many trains also transport cargo from the factory to other towns, so everything is like IRL. A factory works both for its own and other towns.

At least in scenario editor there should not be such strict limitations.

A question for discussion. Why should it have different conditions in scenario editor?

In our city no new industries are allowed within the city.

NEW is the main word. ECS industries, which test town zones are also not allowed in the centre, while they could stay there from the beginning, when it was a suburb.

Heavy industries are allowed in industrial zones very far from the city.

VERY FAR? How do they solve the problem of delivery of the workers?

Refineries, ship yards, steel mill, etc are out of the city in satellite cities, and nobody wants to live there (pollution, dirt).

Strange to see SPb alive 5 shipyards, 3 big shipyards, 2 in the city centre!

OK, now city has expanded there too (low quality housing for workers). Consider that I need about an hour to go there from my home (1/2 hour from express/pay highway.)

Well, in conclusion. Now industries require zone 0. What should be changed? As soon as town grows, town zone 0 grows too and allowed place is changed too.