FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

[andythenorth]

What about next? What will be in 0.7. and when can it be expected for testing and playing?

Approximately 300 changes since 0.6.4. Of these probably about 100 are significant improvements to graphics or gameplay

http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fir ... /revisions

There's no estimated date. FIRS is being converted from nfo to nml. This is an insanely large task, and it's impossible to put any time frame on it

[Cadde]

The ONLY reasons i wanted to try ECS and later FIRS was due to COMPLEXITY

Removing supplies would make FIRS completely pointless as it then would just me an industry chain makeover... No challenge at all.

While i struggle with the monthly supply and especially delivering three types of cargo simultaneously (Steel Mill needing IORE, SCRP and COAL for example) to get the most out of these materials and i wish it was easier (even with daylength factor at 4) i would stop using FIRS the very moment this functionality is removed.

In a perfect world (is there such a thing?) a Steel Mill (example) would have a stockpile AND a production booster.

Here is how i would solve it:

Small Steel Mill

Stockpile size: 900 tonnes of cargo (300 t of IORE, COAL and SCRP respectively and 100 units of ENSP or MSNP*)
Production: 2t of metal for every 8t IORE, 2t of metal for every 8t of COAL, 4t of metal for every 8t of scrap metal. (Same same)
Production bonus: Combining 2 resources gives a bonus. consuming 2t of coal and 2t of iron ore produces 2t of metal (2+2=4t per 8t consumed or 50%, same as now?)
Production cycle: every 15 days
Production (Base): 150 tonnes of raw material consumed per cycle from stockpile.
Production booster: For every 10 units of ENSP (or MNSP*) consumed from stockpile production is increased by 10 tonnes per cycle.

* - Depending on which cargo the developers of FIRS would think is suitable as a production booster.

Explaination: Say you have 1 IORE train, 1 COAL train and 1 SCRP train feeding this Small Steel Mill. They deliver 270 t, 320 t and 210 t of produce respectively every 30 days. The Steel Mill will now produce to maximum capacity of 150 tonnes of metal every 15 days. (300 tonnes monthly)
That is 300 tonnes of raw material consumed every month, 100 tonnes of each of IORE, COAL and SCRP consumed each month. Since we deliver COAL the most, that stockpile will fill first. (after 2 months)
If/When a particular stockpile is filled the factory will stop stockpiling that resource and instead just pay for the delivery and magically make something with the waste. (Think other delivery destinations?)
At this point it would be a good idea for the transport company to deliver ENSP (or MNSP*) to boost production. If there is at least 10 units of ENSP (MNSP*) in storage every 15 days (every cycle) then production will increase by 10 tonnes each 15 days. That is 20 tonnes increase per month. (This means the industry is growing and maintained properly)

Finally, if production exceeds 400 tonnes of raw material consumed per cycle the factory is upgraded to a Medium Steel Mill.
As such, it's stockpile is also increased...

Medium Steel Mill

Stockpile size: 1.800 tonnes of cargo (400 t of IORE, COAL and SCRP respectively and 200 units of ENSP or MSNP*)
Production: 2t of metal for every 8t IORE, 2t of metal for every 8t of COAL, 4t of metal for every 8t of scrap metal. (Same same)
Production bonus: Combining 2 resources gives a bonus. consuming 2t of coal and 2t of iron ore produces 2t of metal (2+2=4t per 8t consumed or 50%, same as now?)
Production cycle: every 15 days
Production (Base): 400 tonnes of raw material consumed per cycle from stockpile.
Production booster: For every 20 units of ENSP (or MNSP*) consumed from stockpile production is increased by 20 tonnes per cycle.

This means a max output of 800 tonnes of metal (at base production) per month.

Large Steel Mill

Stockpile size: 2,700 tonnes of cargo (600 t of IORE, COAL and SCRP respectively and 300 units of ENSP or MSNP*)
Production: 2t of metal for every 8t IORE, 2t of metal for every 8t of COAL, 4t of metal for every 8t of scrap metal. (Same same)
Production bonus: Combining 2 resources gives a bonus. consuming 2t of coal and 2t of iron ore produces 2t of metal (2+2=4t per 8t consumed or 50%, same as now?)
Production cycle: every 10 days
Production (Base): 800 tonnes of raw material consumed per cycle from stockpile.
Production booster: For every 40 units of ENSP (or MNSP*) consumed from stockpile production is increased by 30 tonnes per cycle.

This means a max output of 2,400 tonnes of metal (at base production) per month.


Mega Steel Mill

Stockpile size: 5,400 tonnes of cargo (800 t of IORE, COAL and SCRP respectively and 400 units of ENSP or MSNP*)
Production: 2t of metal for every 8t IORE, 2t of metal for every 8t of COAL, 4t of metal for every 8t of scrap metal. (Same same)
Production bonus: Combining 2 resources gives a bonus. consuming 2t of coal and 2t of iron ore produces 2t of metal (2+2=4t per 8t consumed or 50%, same as now?)
Production cycle: every 10 days
Production (Base): 1,600 tonnes of raw material consumed per cycle from stockpile.
Production booster: For every 80 units of ENSP (or MNSP*) consumed from stockpile production is increased by 50 tonnes per cycle.

This means a max output of 4,800 tonnes of metal (at base production) per month.

Note:

You (reader) might have noticed these numbers are just made up on the spot. Adjustments may be necessary to fit the economy model of FIRS.
Also note that stockpile size does NOT grow in proportion with production levels. Initially you only need to provide 50 tonnes per cycle (100 tonnes per month) of each produce. There is three times as much storage space in the Small Steel Mill as the base production while in the MEGA Steel Mill there is just 200 tonnes extra space in the storage. This means the player has to deliver 1600 tonnes of each cycle (10 days) to get the optimum 1600 units of metal.
The idea behind this is that now is a good time to create a separate feeder network to ensure there is enough raw materials coming into the station. And that feeder network can't possibly be maintained by trucks. It has to have trains that deliver at least 534 tonnes of COAL, IORE and SCRP respectively every 10 days. (Or alternatively the industrial trams from HEQS)

The only problem here is that when you make the change over to a feeder system and you are running cargodist there will be a delay (how long depends on your linkgraph settings) before the produce is sent the correct way.

EDIT: Oh btw... What happens when MEGA has a production level that exceeds the stockpile size?
I would leave that up to the developers to decide but i am thinking of a few possible solutions...

1) Just leave it as it is, there is a cap on how much a single steel mill can produce (and there is a cap in game anyways right?)
2) Increase stockpile size to perfectly match production consumption.
3) Same as 2 but just convert the Steel Mill to what we have now, no stockpile. Just consumption...

The difference between 2 and 3 is that at least there is a stockpile that can be filled. (I don't know how long it takes for a secondary industry to eat resources now but it's less than a day at daylength 4)
So knowing that the stockpile will empty in exactly 10 days means we can send one of each resource to the industry within that 10 day timeframe and not have to resort to synchronizing three vehicles perfectly.
But i suppose the idea is to use a train with all three types of wagons (IORE, COAL and SCRP) but i personally prefer industrial trams

Now, for production decrease... If no ENSP or MNSP is delivered within 12 months of the last delivery then production decreases (by 2*boost amount) or is even halved. If production reaches 50 tonnes per cycle the industry is going to close. Unless of course you have set it to not close. In which case it will remain at the minimum 50 tonnes per cycle until fed by ENSP or MNSP.

The same would apply to ALL industries and resources in FIRS. There is a stockpile and when that stockpile is full... the cargo is "wasted" but paid for.

Obviously you can have a "chance" based growth. For every X units of supplies consumed there is a Y% chance that production will increase by Z amount. (which in this case would be 10 for a Small Steel Mill)


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Short of that small dream scenario of mine. The second best alternative is to just have a stockpile and leave everything as is.
And short of that just leave it as it is because it's better than nothing and FIRS is the BEST set out there and i wouldn't dream of going back to any other set.


EDIT 2:

One more thing, if a certain player (type) feels FIRS is too complicated then FIRS isn't for them. I myself think there is plenty more room in FIRS until it becomes TOO complex.
Can't wait for longer production chains and more complexity. I dislike goods and food for this very reason. They simply stop in a endless resource.
At least i have "Town growth based on goods" patch in Chills Patch pack so towns won't grow unless provided with goods. But then again, they grow if i deliver metal to an industry inside the towns local authority as well.

[atikabubu]

Updated the translation based off the svn.
Sorry if i pissed off the usual translator

[andythenorth]

While i struggle with the monthly supply and especially delivering three types of cargo simultaneously (Steel Mill needing IORE, SCRP and COAL for example)

For secondary industry, e.g. Steel Mill, you only need to deliver the cargos within 30 days of each other. Not simultaneously.

[oberhümer]

Here's how "supplies" could be defined more clearly:
- "Engineering Supplies" -> "Machinery". Any industries accepting them in the sense of lumber right now would additionally take "Building Materials", leaving the lumber yard to produce those only.
- "Farm Supplies" -> "Fertilizer". Tractors etc. would be covered by "Machinery".
- "Manufacturing Supplies" -> "Packaging". No problems here.
This makes a lot more sense to me than the current state.

[Eddi]

do i understand you right that industries then should accept two kinds of supplies? e.g. mines requiring both "machinery" and "building materials", farms requiring both "machinery" and "fertilizer"?

[andythenorth]

It's remains quite possible that supplies will simply be removed.

The various feedback concerning them suggests to me that they are a bad design and should be eliminated. They're also largely unused in my recent games, which is damning evidence against them.

[oberhümer]

do i understand you right that industries then should accept two kinds of supplies? e.g. mines requiring both "machinery" and "building materials", farms requiring both "machinery" and "fertilizer"?

Not necessarily, e.g. animal farms might just accept grain. I see two ways how two supplies could be dealt with using the current system:
1. Require both in the same 30 days for higher production. I don't think this is viable.
2. Delivering both effects a higher chance of an increase.
a) Each cargo has the current effect.
b) Both cargos combined give the current effect.

As for removing supplies, what would happen to the industries that currently produce them?

[andythenorth]

As for removing supplies, what would happen to the industries that currently produce them?

They would be removed. It might make for a better set as it would reduce the number of industries. This would be less confusing to players, and would reduce map generation issues.

[Terkhen]

If you are 100% sure about removing supplies, please make it a setting instead. I can't imagine playing FIRS without supplies.

[Simons Mith]

I greatly enjoy mucking about with supplies, and they contribute a lot towards making FIRS unique. That said I would also be prepared to try a FIRS game without them. The reason for that is that in my games, supplies are an operational problem you only have to solve once. I run with high difficulty settings and it takes 10-20 years for me to establish a network. I am pretty much forced to take the first chance to build a supply station and start running supplies because if I don't my other industries will run down and die before I get another chance, and then my company will probably fail.

But because industries only need a crate each a month, once they've had their first couple of deliveries I can relax, and once every industry has a 200-300 crate stockpile of supplies (or 1,000+ if I'm not paying attention), I can switch the supply trains to 'No loading' orders and treat supplies as just another cargo (and no longer an interesting one, at that). And for that matter one machine shop could theoretically keep every industry on the entire map ticking over till doomsday, which does seem a bit too generous.

In practice, the effect I see from cracking the ENSP or FMSP problem on a given map is that the game suddenly switches from famine to feast without any middle ground. Maybe if industries consumed an amount of supplies which was proportional to their production, this switchover wouldn't be so abrupt, and then maybe supply work would remain interesting over a longer time period. But I believe a proportional-to-production mechanism has already been tried and found wanting. (I don't really understand why it was problematic, TBH, but I'll trust the designers here.) Or maybe if FIRS industries had production limits - relatively low in the case of ENSP and FMSP producers, I'd expect - but I believe that choice has been considered and rejected too.

So even from someone who really enjoys mucking about with ENSPs, if FIRS was changed to remove them I don't think that would discourage me from playing with it. But there's some feedback on how I use them and how they affect my games.

[planetmaker]

It's remains quite possible that supplies will simply be removed.

That would make FIRS just another industry set. Supplies are what makes FIRS unique and give it its character. As an example, oberhumer's suggestion to "clarify" things does actually the reverse, makes chains and usage obscure and opaque. Playing FIRS I immediately know that supplies are the key to boost industry production, both primary and secondary and tertiary in their own way.

Still, the effect of supplied can slightly be changed and accented more as suggested some time ago by V453000: such that production increases to higher levels need require increased and continuous input of supplies, maybe with longer averaging times - but that's not changing the heart of it.

It's good that there are several industry sets which work each differently in their unique way; there's no set possible with "one way suits all players" - that's where they can choose one set or another.

If there should be a FIRS without supplies, it should be only in the "basic economy" or alike - but I can't see FIRS without them present as default nor myself playing FIRS without supplies around.

[Eddi]

the only reasonable way to remove supplies is to finally implement this "economy" system, where you can choose between sets of industry chains, some with supplies, others without.

IMHO, FIRS without supplies is totally useless, might as well play with the default industries.

[EyeMWing]

Supplies are a royal pain for me because I'm always playing with one or the other cargodist/cargo destinations/etc. and they just don't behave properly.

That said, I have a couple suggestions for possible remediation:
- I think the supply producing industries might work better as a primary industry (deliver other cargos to boost their production).
- Lumping engineering and manufacturing supplies together into one cargo might make sense - industrial supply firms tend to do both in my experience.
- Using standard, off-the-shelf Goods as supplies might not be all that terrible (though it might result in some weird possibilities like delivering a furniture factory's output to a farm)

[NekoMaster]

- Using standard, off-the-shelf Goods as supplies might not be all that terrible (though it might result in some weird possibilities like delivering a furniture factory's output to a farm)

Hey, Im sure some of those old farmers like to sit down at the end of the day and have a brew on a comfy couch while putting his feet up on a nicely made table.

[EyeMWing]

Yeah, but they don't need entire trainloads of flat-pack furniture for that.

[Emperor Jake]

Manufacturing supplies is by far not just packaging. It is the combination of the former "packaging" and "parts" cargos. I think that more industries should accept Manufacturing Supplies, especially the Machine Shop (because they need glass and plastic parts to make the machinery)

Moreover, I do not want supplies to be removed either. They are, as many others have said, a defining characteristic of FIRS, and I quite like the challenge of moving them around. It results in the opportunities to use more trucks which add variety to my roads, and shorter and mixed cargo trains as I currently have in my complex supply chain. Even though delivery of supplies is not usually profitable, it pays off in the production of the other industries.

For example, I have a sawmill station with wood being delivered by train, truck and ship. A train full of engineering supplies comes and transfers them at that station, then a truck and a small utility boat take the supplies to the forests, and the wood train has a single boxcar on it that picks up supplies on its way back.

In another place, I have a massive combination-transfer-metal foundry station that serves mixed trains carrying both manufacturing supplies, engineering supplies and goods to another station, where trucks and ships take the ENSP elsewhere, the MNSP is unloaded at a factory, and the goods are unloaded to the town.

However, the "one crate per month" problem is the worst thing about supplies, IMO. The industry should be able to stockpile the supplies so that there can be an irregular, larger delivery of supplies (but still remain relatively small amounts - ie 2 or 3 boxcars' worth for a heavily producing industry)

Maybe if industries consumed an amount of supplies which was proportional to their production

That would also be a good idea. This is a bit like the ECS Vehicles (or maybe it's too similar to ECS?)

[kamnet]

The nice thing about playing FIRS with CargoDest is that the receiving industries can tell the sources how much supplies they want after a link has been established. So even if it all gets consumed in one gulp, there's still quotas to be made.

[NekoMaster]

I find if you use a small and fast train to deliver supplies my trains will make a little money.

There could be a parameter for supplies
Standard Cargos, No Supplies, Supplies 1x Price, 2x Price, 4x Price

This way we can either play with them normally or have supplies with increased pay for those that hate loosing money on supply trains\trucks\ships\planes

[andythenorth]

We're hopeful we have a nice solution to supplies behaviour. It won't ship any time soon. Discussion on that - finished