New Graphics - Blender ".blend" thread (Works In Progress)

[Alltaken]

Hi Ben, how have you done these tiles?

In particular how have you done the grid lines?

I have created all tiles for all climates (that is my only claim for anything), but i don't have grids on any of mine, since i didn't have a predicatble way of making them.

I'm currently rendering out all the tiles now (at 256 they are fairly slow)

If you could help combine efforts to get a set with grids also it would be fantastic.

Cheers.

Alltaken

[brupje]

In blender you can render edges, the program he used did it the same way probably. Which, by the way, I do like. I hope they will be visible when you zoomed out tho.

[brupje]

My new office building, is based on a building in Rotterdam, NL.

[Ben_Robbins_]

The grid lines were stuck on post render. It was easier than setting it up in max. Making tiles 99% of the size and sticking a 100% size tile beneath would make a border for flatter tiles though, but I figured it was quicker just to stick the shaddow on seperate. Using the partical effect with maps ment I could simplifie the lighting, and got the renders down to 7 seconds each. I havn't got them completly sorted yet, but I hope to use the same grid overlays to sort out each tile very quickly, so that the editing time isn't much more than the render time.

The way the 32bpp build averages pixels when you zoom out, rather than display every other one means that the grid lines stay very visible when you zoom out. (if you checked it you would notice!) I tested a lot of widths of line though, and this was my favorite.

[athanasios]

I am checking your work on grass Ben_Robbins_.
I tried to make something similar some time ago (about 8 tiles not all), but I must admit that Alltaken did it better than both of us. (More variation on the tile than just noise skin - colors of which of course are very well chosen). Since your work is professional I suggest you 2 work together. My opinion is you will make a good team.

[ZxBiohazardZx]

can SOMEONE please use my nice depots and update them, i suck in blender and i need someone to help me out a greater deal, sorry but no time to do it myself, hereby the Train and Maglev depot are free of all rights, take them, use them, get nice new one....

[brupje]

update

todo:
add plants/trees
maybe some more work on the roof

[richk67]

Nice - although the perspective on the roof is not quite right - it appears to be higher at the back than it is at the front. The roof should parallel the ground tile.

Otherwise looks great.

[brupje]

Nice - although the perspective on the roof is not quite right - it appears to be higher at the back than it is at the front. The roof should parallel the ground tile.

Otherwise looks great.

adjust you monitor, blender can't be wrong

[richk67]

As your first picture showed, oh yes it can.

Its the angle of view - the roof depth is constant, rather having a tiny recession to it - in other words, the perspective of the roof is not being angled. Check the width of the roof - if it is constant (as it looks to me), it has not had perspective applied. This then leaves the more distant parts apparently larger.

[edit]In Photoshop, the angle of the roofline at the front is 26.9deg, and at the back, 26.9deg. ie. They are parallel. For correct perspective, this angle at the back would be less than 26.9 deg - perhaps 25deg.

And its nowt to do with monitors

Having worked with tilt-and-shift perspective correction lenses as a photographer, this building looks over-compensated - ie. the perspective correction has gone too far, and has started to distort the ratios of the building.

[brupje]

As your first picture showed, oh yes it can.

Its the angle of view - the roof depth is constant, rather having a tiny recession to it - in other words, the perspective of the roof is not being angled. Check the width of the roof - if it is constant (as it looks to me), it has not had perspective applied. This then leaves the more distant parts apparently larger.

[edit]In Photoshop, the angle of the roofline at the front is 26.9deg, and at the back, 26.9deg. ie. They are parallel. For correct perspective, this angle at the back would be less than 26.9 deg - perhaps 25deg.

And its nowt to do with monitors

Having worked with tilt-and-shift perspective correction lenses as a photographer, this building looks over-compensated - ie. the perspective correction has gone too far, and has started to distort the ratios of the building.

It's the default lighting setup, don't blame me Keep the TTD world in mind, not only this building. It will probably fit better between other buildings in the same style

[Ben_Robbins_]

I think the odd perspective is a consequence of orthographically projected graphics, but it can be avoided. In this case I recon it’s the way the building opens out as it gets further away that makes it trip over itself. Maybe lowering the very top section at the very back would sort it out?

Personally I didn't see this problem until richk67 pointed it out, although when looking at your first blender perspective screen grab first I can see it.

It is a very interesting building shape and I like the way its coming along.

Going back to the grass; there has been next to no responses, could criticisms please come now rather than later?. I am not working on a flat screen, and I think the problem that Athanaios has said about may be the result of how flat screens over exaggerate darker pixels, because I can't see the 'noise' effect that he refers to, as on my screen the darker greens blend from the lighter creating vertical desaturating and darkening lines, rather than noise. More variation on 'a' tile makes more mess when tiled, so I am deliberately avoiding this for the underlying grass tiles. Variation and fine detail should be kept to important tiles like buildings, and vehicles, which can then glide over a landscape that flows. (in a TT sense).

The attached image has the dark colours removed. on the bottom area. I think this lacks contrast, and appears fuzzy, while the top one retains the originals contrast but removes the light green vertical lines that are very visible when it was tiled.

[Red*Star]

[edit]In Photoshop, the angle of the roofline at the front is 26.9deg, and at the back, 26.9deg. ie. They are parallel. For correct perspective, this angle at the back would be less than 26.9 deg - perhaps 25deg.

And its nowt to do with monitors

Having worked with tilt-and-shift perspective correction lenses as a photographer, this building looks over-compensated - ie. the perspective correction has gone too far, and has started to distort the ratios of the building.

That's the problem: TTD isn't reality . In reality you see things being far away smaller than things near you. You can simulate that in CG by using vanishing point projection.

The point is: TTD uses isometric projection, which is a kind of orthographic projection, where things don't appear smaller the more far they are away.


btw, I think the building looks good - and the perspective issues will probably disappear when looking at the building in a group of other buildings. Nice work, brupje

[brupje]

I think the odd perspective is a consequence of orthographically projected graphics, but it can be avoided. In this case I recon it’s the way the building opens out as it gets further away that makes it trip over itself. Maybe lowering the very top section at the very back would sort it out?

Personally I didn't see this problem until richk67 pointed it out, although when looking at you first blender perspective screen grab first I can see it.

I can't lower it, it would be messed up when rendered from a different angle. Also mountains are drawn the same way, why change it for a building? I'll wait until sergej or anybody has put it in a game scene so I can see it in real action.

It is a very interesting building shape and I like the way its coming along.

thanks

Going back to the grass; there has been next to no responses, could criticisms please come now rather than later?. I am not working on a flat screen, and I think the problem that Athanaios has said about may be the result of how flat screens over exaggerate darker pixels, because I can't see the 'noise' effect that he refers to, as on my screen the darker greens blend from the lighter creating vertical desaturating and darkening lines, rather than noise. More variation on 'a' tile makes more mess when tiled, so I am deliberately avoiding this for the underlying grass tiles. Variation and fine detail should be kept to important tiles like buildings, and vehicles, which can then glide over a landscape that flows. (in a TT sense).

The attached image has the dark colours removed. on the bottom area. I think this lacks contrast, and appears fuzzy, while the top one retains the originals contrast but removes the light green vertical lines that are very visible when it was tiled.

Well I'd like to comment on the grass, but they both look good to me. I need to see it along a town or something to be constructive. Maybe 4 different grass sprites could avoid the tiling effect. Also some brown spots for mud or dead grass or anything could be interesting

[ZxBiohazardZx]

i would love to see the most top version of the 2, its better on my PC monitor then the bottem one (that one is to greenish?)

[richk67]

Dont get me wrong - its a lovely looking building - just (to me only, I suppose), the roofline doesnt look right.

If you could do all the buildings to this quality, I would be singing with joy... just there is a perfectionist in me, and it doesnt quite look right (to me).

(grumble... qualifying statements ... grumble)

Keep on the good work, though. I cant draw for toffee, so I'll stick to coding.

[athanasios]

Ben_Robbins_: I checked your tiles with comparison to Alltaken ones. I must admit I was a little quick to favor more Alltaken ones and I apologize. Both are good. The problem lies when we have bare tiles. They all look the same.
As you nicely pointed out original look more ugly because of the repeated pattern. I mentioned about 'noise' meaning that there in no pattern like original ones but just a mixture of darker and less dark pixels. (Suppose we have a skin of grass to put on the tile. Tile is 2wx1h, but considering that this is grass that has some height (say 2 pixels) we come to 1x1.).

My comments:

Alltaken has some more distinct areas on tile and is a good approach. Can be areas of different color, small rocks, bare land. (Simutrans used flowers?) Problem is that they will be repeated and look ugly. Solution would be to have more than 1 sprite of each tile and use randomly (I suggest 6-8 for flat tile, ~4 for others). Hope this can be easily done, and does not require too much code. If not, we have to resort to adding the above extras (rocks, etc) as "trees", and I think is not a good approach and will mess things more.

Certainly original grass (above) looks much better than lighter (below) one. Thought about stretching skin to show taller grass(~2pxls more)? (Just an idea, I don't mean it will certainly look better, have to test it, maybe it is more ugly. I am thinking it will be nice as in cities it will cover part of other structures and these will merge better.)

Grass in Alltaken's set is a little bit more bluish. Personally I would shift the hue to more green. And I think that your Grass Alltaken is better for 128. It is lacking detail in 256. Size (bytes) is proof of that. Ben_Robbins_'s tiles are much bigger.

NOTE: With 256 size we must be carefull with placement of buildings and other things. Example: Buildings, pavements should be shifted 1 pixel up.

todo: ... maybe some more work on the roof

Certainly, unless you want some poor fellow to go near the edge and fall down.
Also the building is very flat. (Just like my avatar. I must fix it one day!) Some windows could be deeper, the chip - company logo on the top should extrude from the building's wall...
brupje you are providing us nice buildings!

... the perspective on the roof is not quite right - it appears to be higher at the back than it is at the front. The roof should parallel the ground tile...

Perspective is not wrong. The building's shape, is the one that is not paraller with ground tile. This gives a false illusion. To this is adding the small tower at the back of the roof. To fix this tower has to be shifted more to the front.

And according to my opinion building as a whole should be shifted more front on the base tile. It is too much back. Seems as if back is out of the base tile.

[Ben_Robbins_]

Brupje: for brown spots of mud or dead grass or anything else that isn't in the original, these need new tiles. If I add them to one tile the repetition would look terrible. So for the time being let’s just talk replacement rather than additional features, cause its a big enough challenge in itself.

Not shore if you've realised..the tar files can be stuck in game and used. If you want to "see it along a town or something" then just stick them in.

Richk67: keep up your comments...you know your stuff and good graphics need there criticisms. Would the problem go away if the left/right extremities of the roof where parallel to the tile edge as in the attached image?

Athanasios: I'm unclear to if the problem you had and the problem other people I have been speaking to have is the same. Flat screens appear to make many black dots, which I can't see myself, so is very tricky to get rid of. I've worked on trying to remove the dark spots in the updated attachment. Although removing these darkest ones does reduce contrast which I thought you wanted more of, although is this just referring to the gradual shift of colour across a tile?. If so, for the purpose of tiles having a large variation is an eye saw when the sprite is tiled.

For areas of different colour, small rocks etc. It’s the same as Brupje's post. In time extra things could go in, if somebody codes them in, but for the moment replacement is the matter in hand. Although in the future, yes I agree, extra less plain tiles will break up the uniformity and quite plain landscape.

The sprites I have done are 256, I have not rendered 128 tiles yet, and based on your opinion of them at 128 scale they need doing. Noted.

For placing buildings they will need shifting up so that they sit on pavements; that’s correct. It has been discussed before, but no pavement height is finalised. Really a mesh is needed for use as a quick reference.

[Alltaken]

I do agree about the grass tile criticism.... i think the tiles i have created are not very good in 256, (they are good in 128 though).

i think all the grass/ground tiles should have a little more verticle noise in my one, based on Ben-robbins stuff. the important contribution in my submission is not the ground tiles themselves, but the fact that the rendering can be automated.

If you would like i can change the texture on any ground tiles people want, once i have submitted all the files across the range. its a 20 minute process to change an entire set.

so yes, keep the crit coming, and feel free to try making grass tiles yourself using my setup, if you can learn blenders texture editor, then you can work the tiles system.

here are the instructions, the files don't exist for some reason anymore, but they have been shared, and i can share them again. its not very hard

http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Groun ... raphics%29

[brupje]

Dont get me wrong - its a lovely looking building - just (to me only, I suppose), the roofline doesnt look right.

If you could do all the buildings to this quality, I would be singing with joy... just there is a perfectionist in me, and it doesnt quite look right (to me).

(grumble... qualifying statements ... grumble)

Keep on the good work, though. I cant draw for toffee, so I'll stick to coding.

I'm not offended I need crtitism to see other perspectives (LOL), anyway I agree it's looking somewhat weird, but it's a consequence of having this level of detail in combination with camera settings. On large buildings you will get this effect, I'm afraid. But in game it might not be noticable.

Certainly, unless you want some poor fellow to go near the edge and fall down.
Also the building is very flat. (Just like my avatar. I must fix it one day!) Some windows could be deeper, the chip - company logo on the top should extrude from the building's wall...
brupje you are providing us nice buildings!

Thanks, maybe I'll try bumpmapping the windows. I start to get the hang of UV mapping. But no promises there The original building has fences on the top, but hard to realize a good replication of them.

Brupje: for brown spots of mud or dead grass or anything else that isn't in the original, these need new tiles. If I add them to one tile the repetition would look terrible. So for the time being let’s just talk replacement rather than additional features, cause its a big enough challenge in itself.

fair enough.

Not shore if you've realised..the tar files can be stuck in game and used. If you want to "see it along a town or something" then just stick them in.

I know, but it takes quite some time to do for each sprite, while someone else already did it. If people would share their info/tar files along it would save me time