Posted: 29 Dec 2006 22:00
We´re not in the OT section here.Dave Worley wrote:You are, without doubt, the biggest SQUIRREL I have ever seen.
Moderizzle!
regards
Michael
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regards
Michael
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Lt_Gable's graphics tryouts
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regards
Michael
Posted: 29 Dec 2006 22:14
I think Gable's last comment explains it all. That station is not even close to its final stage - it's just one of the first drafts. One can have the idea of the general size and shape of the building, as well as the first decorative elements (which lie in the closest corner of the station).
Michael, your comments and critics would be correct and to the point... IF that were the final stage of the station. In that case, I would totally agree - the walls are uniformly colored, there's very little study of the light effect, very few colors are used, and even in the southern corner (which has the first faint glimmers of detailing) the attempt is very poor, a very bare dithering technique is used, with very few colors to make it even worse. If someone told me that's their final product, I'd be blunt and classify it as crap.
But...
I have worked with Lt_Gable in the past, working almost side by side with him, and know his technique well enough to recognize a first draft of his. That drawing only shows the general shape of the station and the very initial stage of detailing. Judging the drawing for what it is, I said, and confirm it once again, that it's starting to look great. The shape is there. It follows the original model well enough and the first sketch of detailing shows a good understanding of the original model.
Of course it's nowhere near being the finished product. So, we can criticize it until tomorrow - I strongly believe critics can be useful (especially when they're coming from one of the best artists as MB). I have always encouraged criticism to my own work, too.
But I know Gable's style well enough to trust his judgement and his skills. He will do a lot of work on this station, and it will eventually get better. My encouragement wanted to be a confirm that he got the shape right and started doing the very first sketch of detailing the right way - this is all I judged. Everyone is free to give directions or guidance to help the artist, but merely pointing out that...
And here comes the difference in attitude of the many artists around here... some like to draw by themselves and show the final product, while others prefer to show each point of their progress. Anyone is free to do what they want, especially when posting on their own thread. And anyone else is free to express their comments and critics - judging everything for what it is.
As for techniques, especially dithering, I know that Gable likes starting with a regular pattern of few colors to give a first idea of shading. It's a technique I personally never use, and which I even used to criticise him for. But he uses it just as a base; other colors are added as the drawing process goes on, so that the model gets a less regular, less ugly look.
To give another example, I myself never show work in progress, but if I did, it would be easy to say they lack pretty much everything. Also because, in my own drawing process, shading is done at the same time as the model gets its shape (my very first sketch is made by some lines only).
Look at my (still unreleased) SNCF 2D2 5500, for instance. I could post the first sketch to have a first feedback about the engine's general shape. Of course you might say that it lacks everything: coloring, shading, and detailing (the pantos for instance are not even sketched). But does it go to the wrong direction? I don't think so, because it's just a first draft.
Look at what came out of it. I modified the bonnets, then realized the first version was too long, so it eventually got shortened by 1 pixel, to make it better looking when multi-headed. Now, you can amply criticize the almost-final version (please do if you feel like). But saying that the first draft has no shading sounds a bit of a cheap shot to me (something like a tautology).
Sorry for my post's lenght
Cheers
Snail
Michael, your comments and critics would be correct and to the point... IF that were the final stage of the station. In that case, I would totally agree - the walls are uniformly colored, there's very little study of the light effect, very few colors are used, and even in the southern corner (which has the first faint glimmers of detailing) the attempt is very poor, a very bare dithering technique is used, with very few colors to make it even worse. If someone told me that's their final product, I'd be blunt and classify it as crap.
But...
Now, this says it all. This is just a first attempt of drawing a station (in this case, the Gare du Nord).Lt_Gable wrote:i've begun a new parisian station.
I have worked with Lt_Gable in the past, working almost side by side with him, and know his technique well enough to recognize a first draft of his. That drawing only shows the general shape of the station and the very initial stage of detailing. Judging the drawing for what it is, I said, and confirm it once again, that it's starting to look great. The shape is there. It follows the original model well enough and the first sketch of detailing shows a good understanding of the original model.
Of course it's nowhere near being the finished product. So, we can criticize it until tomorrow - I strongly believe critics can be useful (especially when they're coming from one of the best artists as MB). I have always encouraged criticism to my own work, too.
But I know Gable's style well enough to trust his judgement and his skills. He will do a lot of work on this station, and it will eventually get better. My encouragement wanted to be a confirm that he got the shape right and started doing the very first sketch of detailing the right way - this is all I judged. Everyone is free to give directions or guidance to help the artist, but merely pointing out that...
sounds a bit too excessive to me. Of course the texturing is non-existant. It's just a first sketch.Michael Blunck wrote:these are bad drawings simply because of the ugly or non-existant texturing
And here comes the difference in attitude of the many artists around here... some like to draw by themselves and show the final product, while others prefer to show each point of their progress. Anyone is free to do what they want, especially when posting on their own thread. And anyone else is free to express their comments and critics - judging everything for what it is.
As for techniques, especially dithering, I know that Gable likes starting with a regular pattern of few colors to give a first idea of shading. It's a technique I personally never use, and which I even used to criticise him for. But he uses it just as a base; other colors are added as the drawing process goes on, so that the model gets a less regular, less ugly look.
To give another example, I myself never show work in progress, but if I did, it would be easy to say they lack pretty much everything. Also because, in my own drawing process, shading is done at the same time as the model gets its shape (my very first sketch is made by some lines only).
Look at my (still unreleased) SNCF 2D2 5500, for instance. I could post the first sketch to have a first feedback about the engine's general shape. Of course you might say that it lacks everything: coloring, shading, and detailing (the pantos for instance are not even sketched). But does it go to the wrong direction? I don't think so, because it's just a first draft.
Look at what came out of it. I modified the bonnets, then realized the first version was too long, so it eventually got shortened by 1 pixel, to make it better looking when multi-headed. Now, you can amply criticize the almost-final version (please do if you feel like). But saying that the first draft has no shading sounds a bit of a cheap shot to me (something like a tautology).
Sorry for my post's lenght
Cheers
Snail
Posted: 29 Dec 2006 22:57
Well, Snail, thanks for your long post.
O/c I´m able to tell apart a sketch from a finished work. (Although some people here would like to dispute me that ability.)
As you´re stating yourself, "Lt gable" has a strong affinity to dithering even in his "finished" works and I simply wanted to point out the downside of that technique.
And no, this dithering technique isn´t only used in his sketches (why? It´d be needless if it´s intended to be removed later?) but in each and every of his drawings. See the attached magnifications. These works have not been classified as "sketches" from the context but more or less as "finished works". They reveal an excessive use of dithering and I doubt that this will be removed in the end.
So it seems that my point still holds.
regards
Michael
O/c I´m able to tell apart a sketch from a finished work. (Although some people here would like to dispute me that ability.)
As you´re stating yourself, "Lt gable" has a strong affinity to dithering even in his "finished" works and I simply wanted to point out the downside of that technique.
And no, this dithering technique isn´t only used in his sketches (why? It´d be needless if it´s intended to be removed later?) but in each and every of his drawings. See the attached magnifications. These works have not been classified as "sketches" from the context but more or less as "finished works". They reveal an excessive use of dithering and I doubt that this will be removed in the end.
So it seems that my point still holds.
regards
Michael
Posted: 29 Dec 2006 23:20
I agree with this. In the context of "the knowledgeable" and "the amateur", I am at neither level. I am at best a kibitzer and an interested observer, and I have not participated in the discussion about technique. To my untrained eyes Lt.Gable's efforts are indeed "fantastique" in as much I believe I see the potential for the production of a very acceptable work.michael blunck wrote:Because if it boils down to knowledge, the opinion of the knowledgeable has a higher priority than that of the amateur. Not only in music, but e.g. in mathematics, medicine and - good god! - in the art of drawing.
That said, for any potential ttd artist, I recommend that you read the above discussions on technique. Michael has provided what appears to be excellent examples that would do justice to any tutorial. The discussions also provide an excellent contrast in styles and how they contribute to the respective end products.
I extend my complements and respect for both Michael and Lt. Gable.
Now, a question for Lt.Gable and Le Gare de l'est ... when will you finish the tower in the upper right corner?
Posted: 29 Dec 2006 23:49
i believe in all fairness that mr. Blunck has a good point there. albeit a bit blunt, he has thoroughly explained why some styles give one a minor result in terms of graphic satisfaction, and if you lot like it or not: he is quite right. Gable (and M4rek along with that) should see this not only as advice, but as a lesson. the higher masters always overrule, and this was a small masterclass shading and texturing. instead of trying to prove your own right, in which one will undoubtfully fail, try to incorporate this lesson and extend your own skills to a new level. i know i would.
on the mere subject of commenting, i have nothing to add. it's indeed quite contraproductive to simply praise every bit of sprites produced. as SAC pointed out, it's much more effective to point out flaws, than to praise the composition. 'cause albeit the quality of certain things is poor in for instance that station, the design and concept looks promising.
furthermore, Gable seems to want the world to see his sprites. well then, don't be afraid to be judged, and/or in this case, corrected even.
on the mere subject of commenting, i have nothing to add. it's indeed quite contraproductive to simply praise every bit of sprites produced. as SAC pointed out, it's much more effective to point out flaws, than to praise the composition. 'cause albeit the quality of certain things is poor in for instance that station, the design and concept looks promising.
furthermore, Gable seems to want the world to see his sprites. well then, don't be afraid to be judged, and/or in this case, corrected even.
Posted: 30 Dec 2006 00:30
i have a feeling you wont even read this post, but here goes.
i can see that this is an important lesson, i never said it wasnt. i am sure i will remember this discussion and use it to improve my own skills, just as i am sure that gable will ignore it to some extent.
@mb yes, youre quite right in saying that some people here would question your ability to distinguish product from draft, but thats not the point here. you posted close ups of 2 pieces of work by gable that used a lot of dithering, and quite right. but why did you not comment on those when they were posted, asking for coments and criticisms? why did you only now bring them up after you have been challenged. im sure you know that you were wrong to pick on this particular example to show your point. but you did pick the right artist and were able to rescue yourself by giving his other works ago, and there i cannot question that you are right. for me thats the end of that particular issue unless you wish to challenge me further (though i do not reccomend it).
i look forward to your constructive criticisms in the future, they really help
(though this time you just picked the wrong time and place)
regards
m4rek
_________________
no offence to anyone was intended by any of my posts, and i was most certainly NOT questioning your abilities as artists
i can see that this is an important lesson, i never said it wasnt. i am sure i will remember this discussion and use it to improve my own skills, just as i am sure that gable will ignore it to some extent.
@mb yes, youre quite right in saying that some people here would question your ability to distinguish product from draft, but thats not the point here. you posted close ups of 2 pieces of work by gable that used a lot of dithering, and quite right. but why did you not comment on those when they were posted, asking for coments and criticisms? why did you only now bring them up after you have been challenged. im sure you know that you were wrong to pick on this particular example to show your point. but you did pick the right artist and were able to rescue yourself by giving his other works ago, and there i cannot question that you are right. for me thats the end of that particular issue unless you wish to challenge me further (though i do not reccomend it).
i look forward to your constructive criticisms in the future, they really help
(though this time you just picked the wrong time and place)
regards
m4rek
_________________
no offence to anyone was intended by any of my posts, and i was most certainly NOT questioning your abilities as artists
Posted: 30 Dec 2006 01:27
There, there boys. I think this discusion is taking a turn to a place we can be with out.
Now be nice and go out and play in the garden. If youre in the same timezone as me, go to bed!
Now be nice and go out and play in the garden. If youre in the same timezone as me, go to bed!
Posted: 30 Dec 2006 04:16
It sounds to me like you are focused on "winning" the argument, rather than finding an acceptable precedent for TTD graphics.M4rek wrote:i look forward to your constructive criticisms in the future, they really help
(though this time you just picked the wrong time and place)
regards
I completely agree with Michael. There are a lot of artists that DO lack proper texturing on their models, and if we are going to progress as a community, we WILL need to address this point.
Some people need to thicken their skin, or accept that they will be drawing (excuse the term), second rate drawings as their final product. While the station in question looks good, it is not a TTD style. The drawing styles do not match, and, no matter how good it looks, it will never truly "fit" into TTD.
I have been playing with TTDP since Newships came out, and ever since the beginning, I have seen artists drawing new graphics. Michael (I believe I can say this without sucking up, but we shall see about that), and a couple of other artists (I'm going to say DanMacK and Pikka here) have MASTERED the art of the TTD style. Thats why Michaels Stations/Trains, Pikkas Trains, DanMacks trains, all mesh so damned well with the TTD environment.
I personally WON'T use graphics that don't look like they fit in with the TTD world, because it degrades the whole game image.
I think a lot can be learned from artists such as Michael, SAC, Pikka, Dan, etc, and you should be grateful for their comments. Don't agree with them, then don't follow them, but don't try and get into an argument about whats "better" or "more suitable for TTD", because, they have the experience, the skills and the charisma (well, perhaps not the last point...
), and they know their stuff.Other people, know enough to teach, but they have not yet mastered their craft. It may be a harsh wakeup call to people who grossly inflate their own skills, but it's true. The sooner such people realise they are not perfect and start learning from those that have higher skills, the better...
Finally, look at Michael (as he is heavily involved in this discussion) as a case example. Download Arctic Set 1.0, something we all thought was beyond cool when it came out, yet now it pales in comparison to his latest works (some of the newst DBXL trains are beyond words). The reason being is that he HAS the balls to say "right, this clearly isn't right, it needs fixing". You'll notice thats different from "thats crap".
So, I suggest people smarten up, and either learn, or don't. But don't try to start and then "win" arguments about art technique. Becuase on anything other than an opinion, the master artists will win hands down. And they are the masters, not only through experience, but because they are open minded and willing to learn. That results in graphic sets that everyone wants to use. I can safely say I will play with anything Michael, Pikka or Dan draws. Even if I originally have no interest, the sheer quality of the graphics and code behind it means it is worth trying out.
Lets keep things civil, shall we. We've all done well so far, but I notice some members getting a bit hot under the collar already (and Worley, SQUIRREL is such an ugly word. Please limit yourself to WOMBAT or below
)Raichase
Posted: 30 Dec 2006 09:22
Well, that pretty much sums it up. A very good post Rai!
For me personally I think it's a matter of trying to avoid to step on peoples toes, (read as new artists), as it always going to end up with a situation where numerous people turns up to rescue and defend. For some reason it's very difficult to deliver and receive critizism in here. It has gone to such a point where I even had to put down in my own thread that; "be brutally honest"!
As much as I appreciate all the positive comments I receive, (and I seriously do), I must say I would be just as happy if people wrote; "what a piece of crap, please erase that graphics immediately"! How else would I evolve as an artist? Since this isn't possible, God knows why, I therefor decided to establish my own "testing group" with people who I know won't refrain from being "brutally honest" - although one of these persons is disappointing me right now!
With that said I'd like to point out that I'm far from being a "complete" artist. I have a loong way to go - if it's possible at all to become a "complete" artist. But I can quickly determine whether or not some graphics work made by someone is going to be something with value. I've been in the "business" for a long time and believe I have skills enough to determine that sort of things. And even though some of you points out it's just "sketches", it should be noted that it's perfectly possible to "judge" a final outcome already at this early point due to available comparisons and some other things closeby.
For the record I'd also like to point out that we sometimes forget that not everyone in here have English language as their first language. This means that whatever we are able to "point out" in a certain way using our own native language may come out differently when using a second language - or a third - even though the basic intentions is the very same. It may just sound more harsch then it would otherwise! Please do keep that in mind. I see this too often!
Anyways, personally I'd like to see a change of direction here at TT-forums where we are more open minded when it comes to deliver and receive critizism. Just as Rai states it's important in order to develop quality in the end, and believe it or not; it's benefitial for all of us. As for now I think MB is the only one actually doing this more than anyone else, and this should be encouraged even more. The more artists evolving into quality artists, the more creativity is there to follow, and a greater creativity means a flourishing activity! You'd all be surprised in the end.
To make things short, it's about time we learn from other communities as my experience from TT-forums is very different from what I'm usually used to! Let's get creative with quality!
And that ends my OT! Sorry LtGable!
For me personally I think it's a matter of trying to avoid to step on peoples toes, (read as new artists), as it always going to end up with a situation where numerous people turns up to rescue and defend. For some reason it's very difficult to deliver and receive critizism in here. It has gone to such a point where I even had to put down in my own thread that; "be brutally honest"!
As much as I appreciate all the positive comments I receive, (and I seriously do), I must say I would be just as happy if people wrote; "what a piece of crap, please erase that graphics immediately"! How else would I evolve as an artist? Since this isn't possible, God knows why, I therefor decided to establish my own "testing group" with people who I know won't refrain from being "brutally honest" - although one of these persons is disappointing me right now!
With that said I'd like to point out that I'm far from being a "complete" artist. I have a loong way to go - if it's possible at all to become a "complete" artist. But I can quickly determine whether or not some graphics work made by someone is going to be something with value. I've been in the "business" for a long time and believe I have skills enough to determine that sort of things. And even though some of you points out it's just "sketches", it should be noted that it's perfectly possible to "judge" a final outcome already at this early point due to available comparisons and some other things closeby.
For the record I'd also like to point out that we sometimes forget that not everyone in here have English language as their first language. This means that whatever we are able to "point out" in a certain way using our own native language may come out differently when using a second language - or a third - even though the basic intentions is the very same. It may just sound more harsch then it would otherwise! Please do keep that in mind. I see this too often!
Anyways, personally I'd like to see a change of direction here at TT-forums where we are more open minded when it comes to deliver and receive critizism. Just as Rai states it's important in order to develop quality in the end, and believe it or not; it's benefitial for all of us. As for now I think MB is the only one actually doing this more than anyone else, and this should be encouraged even more. The more artists evolving into quality artists, the more creativity is there to follow, and a greater creativity means a flourishing activity! You'd all be surprised in the end.
To make things short, it's about time we learn from other communities as my experience from TT-forums is very different from what I'm usually used to! Let's get creative with quality!
And that ends my OT! Sorry LtGable!
Posted: 30 Dec 2006 09:25
^^^ And that's what makes SAC a good artist. Not the pretty sprites, or the shiny trees (although, those do help), it's the willingness to learn.
Posted: 30 Dec 2006 10:28
ok, a lot of interesting things said...
>I completely agree with Michael. There are a lot of artists that DO lack proper texturing on their models, and if we are going to progress as a community, we WILL need to address this point.
well then, if they have been following this thread, they now know
>I personally WON'T use graphics that don't look like they fit in with the TTD world, because it degrades the whole game image.
id say we've moved quite a bit from ttd style graphics, last i saw of ttrs it didnt look anything like the original graphics. yes the game looks crap when original ttd graphics combine with the newer style, but if you convert all the graphics into the new style, it looks absolutely amazing.
>but don't try and get into an argument about whats "better" or "more suitable for TTD
never did and i dont intend to, totally agree with you here
as for that argument, well, theres not much of an argument to win. i totally agree with mb's point, but his original premise for his point was incorrect, and im sure he knows that (by my and gable's efforts).
>I completely agree with Michael. There are a lot of artists that DO lack proper texturing on their models, and if we are going to progress as a community, we WILL need to address this point.
well then, if they have been following this thread, they now know
>I personally WON'T use graphics that don't look like they fit in with the TTD world, because it degrades the whole game image.
id say we've moved quite a bit from ttd style graphics, last i saw of ttrs it didnt look anything like the original graphics. yes the game looks crap when original ttd graphics combine with the newer style, but if you convert all the graphics into the new style, it looks absolutely amazing.
>but don't try and get into an argument about whats "better" or "more suitable for TTD
never did and i dont intend to, totally agree with you here
as for that argument, well, theres not much of an argument to win. i totally agree with mb's point, but his original premise for his point was incorrect, and im sure he knows that (by my and gable's efforts).
Posted: 30 Dec 2006 17:40
Just to be more clear...
I like Gable's drawing style, because his models are good shaped. He show some progress. He's obviously one of artists who first draws shape, asks for opinion, and if that's good, then goes to detail it. He don't wants to waste time to detail something, if that not promisses. So, wait and we'll see if those graphics have future or not.
Of course, Michael's opinion is one of opinions which you simply can't ignore, so, if he says: "You should do something to get good results", be sure you must do it. There are more people here which opinion I respect very much (I'll not mention nobody, just because of risk to forgot somebody). He gave here some examples how he made his great work.
And I hope I'm at least partially in group of artists (I said, I hope...)...
Somebody obviously misread something...Me, Myself & I wrote:I hope those nice graphics will be finished soon and someone will code them.
I like Gable's drawing style, because his models are good shaped. He show some progress. He's obviously one of artists who first draws shape, asks for opinion, and if that's good, then goes to detail it. He don't wants to waste time to detail something, if that not promisses. So, wait and we'll see if those graphics have future or not.
Of course, Michael's opinion is one of opinions which you simply can't ignore, so, if he says: "You should do something to get good results", be sure you must do it. There are more people here which opinion I respect very much (I'll not mention nobody, just because of risk to forgot somebody). He gave here some examples how he made his great work.
And I hope I'm at least partially in group of artists (I said, I hope...)...
Posted: 31 Dec 2006 09:12
Yes Wile, you are. Indeed you are the author of the only fully ECS-compatible train set. And possibly because of its narrow-gauge support it seems to be much in use especially in the german TTD scene.Wile E. Coyote wrote:I hope I'm at least partially in group of artists (I said, I hope...)...
regards
Michael
Posted: 31 Dec 2006 09:19
The most useful skill as an artist is the ability to learn from your mistakes, and to not take [constructive] criticism of your work lightly. If someone tells you x part of the model looks bad, than revisit it. If someone tells you to look at the texturing at y, reassess it and add to/improve/redo it. Another some new artists do is to not stay on one subject. They will leave a raft of unfinished projects behind them as they continually start things, and never finish them. this should be avoided.
Posted: 31 Dec 2006 10:47
Michael, I'm so glad and honoured to hear that.michael blunck wrote:Yes Wile, you are. Indeed you are the author of the only fully ECS-compatible train set. And possibly because of its narrow-gauge support it seems to be much in use especially in the german TTD scene.Wile E. Coyote wrote:I hope I'm at least partially in group of artists (I said, I hope...)...
regards
Michael
I saw in German forum some posts mentioning Serbian set (unfortunately, I don't speak German... 
)But don't forget, I'm not single author of this set, there is whole team working on it.
Posted: 31 Dec 2006 23:10
I agreemichael blunck wrote:Yes Wile, you are.Wile E. Coyote wrote:I hope I'm at least partially in group of artists (I said, I hope...)...
And there are some other great artists we didn't mention here... Zimmlock, George, just to name two of them...Posted: 01 Jan 2007 00:34
happy new year to all, but xan be get back on topic please? (Lt Gable's Graphics tryouts)
Posted: 01 Jan 2007 03:02
Bonne Année!
Back on topic:
Le Gare de l'est ... when will you finish the tower in the upper right corner?
Back on topic:
Le Gare de l'est ... when will you finish the tower in the upper right corner?
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 22:17
hello i'm back with some new stuff, lately i've been drawing planes, there they are. feel free to comment, as usual, if constructive. those are WIP again, not all planes are finished.
Posted: 29 Apr 2007 21:34
Great stuff really _ I want just to encourage you in this field, Lt