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Posted: **14 Apr 2014 18:23**

Copyright is often on 'the work'. I am not going to even attempt to define the boundaries of 'the work'.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-appl ... terary.htm

This is UK specific, other territories may vary.

Oh we're on page 2 of this discussion already. And yet it will probably conclude that playing armchair lawyer is stupid, and some of us would be happier if we'd all just use GPL. That said, I'm considering switching to WTFPL http://www.wtfpl.net

What larks.

Posted: **14 Apr 2014 18:38**

wallyweb wrote:
planetmaker wrote:Hint: Yes. And Yes. As you probably can't prove that you didn't simply copy. And even then.

With small exceptions. And the exceptions and boundaries to where it goes to 'yes, but doesn't matter' depend on your legislation and laws. Generally it will depends on whether you can convince people that the code or the image in question is complex enough to count as original work. Generally these exceptions are small and the boundaries to 'yes, but doesn't matter' really high.
Agreed.
The most contentious part of litigattion is proof of prior art.

But, with the rigity of the specifications, how does one avoid composing a bit of code that has not been done previously?
At least with graphics there is always the possibility to differentiate with colour selection and shading techniques, etc. even though the underlying software is the same.

The specs on how to write source code are much less rigid than you may assume. For your benefit I'll just assume you act stupid. We're talking of source code, not of the compiled grf, and you can write the most simple NewGRF already in as many ways as I can write this whole posting or you could have written yours.
By the same argument of yours that "code follows rigid rules", language also follows rigid rules. Thus there cannot be any piece of text whatsoever which can be copyrighted. Very well then.

All equivalent:

Code: Select all

 * Makefile NewGRF framework
 * Copyright (C) 2009 - 2014 Ingo von Borstel (planetmaker) and others
 *
 * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
 * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
 * the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
 * (at your option) any later version.
 *
 * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
 * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
 * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
 * GNU General Public License for more details.
 *
 * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along
 * with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc.,
 * 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA.
 */

/*
 * You can either put your NML code directly here, all in one file
 * That makes it easy to use when you don't have a linux or OSX
 * environment: you then can simply call nml on this file and
 * test your project also locally on windows:
 * nmlc mynewgrf.pnml
 *
 * Alternatively include here the list of source files and treat
 * this as your main file of the source code. You might then also
 * move the grf definition in its own file, e.g. src/header.pnml
 */

/* Define the NewGRF: */
grf {
 grfid: "TEST";
 name: string(STR_GRF_NAME);
 desc: string(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
 url: string(STR_GRF_URL);
 version: 5187;
 min_compatible_version: 1;
}

/*
 * Template to replace a full set of groundsprites, all in one row,
 *     first sprite starting at x/y. See gfx/test.xcf for an example
 *     arrangement of the sprites which are described by this template
 */
template tmpl_groundsprites(x, y) {
    [ 0+x, y, 64, 31, -31, 0 ]
    [ 80+x, y, 64, 31, -31, 0 ]
    [ 160+x, y, 64, 23, -31, 0 ]
    [ 240+x, y, 64, 23, -31, 0 ]

    [ 320+x, y, 64, 31, -31, 0 ]
    [ 398+x, y, 64, 31, -31, 0 ]
    [ 478+x, y, 64, 23, -31, 0 ]
    [ 558+x, y, 64, 23, -31, 0 ]

    [ 638+x, y, 64, 39, -31, -8 ]
    [ 718+x, y, 64, 39, -31, -8 ]
    [ 798+x, y, 64, 31, -31, -8 ]
    [ 878+x, y, 64, 31, -31, -8 ]

    [ 958+x, y, 64, 39, -31, -8 ]
    [1038+x, y, 64, 39, -31, -8 ]
    [1118+x, y, 64, 31, -31, -8 ]
    [1196+x, y, 64, 47, -31,-16 ]

    [1276+x, y, 64, 15, -31, 0 ]
    [1356+x, y, 64, 31, -31, -8 ]
    [1436+x, y, 64, 31, -31, -8 ]
}

/* Replace the normal, plain land */
replace (3981, "gfx/terrain.png") { tmpl_groundsprites(1, 1) }

or...

Code: Select all

/*
 * Makefile NewGRF framework
 * Copyright (C) 2009 - 2014 Ingo von Borstel (planetmaker) and others
 *
 * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
 * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
 * the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
 * (at your option) any later version.
 *
 * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
 * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
 * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
 * GNU General Public License for more details.
 *
 * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along
 * with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc.,
 * 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA.
 */

/*
 * We try here some random stuff. Do what you like, but follow the license,
 * if you re-use any code or use it as reference. Otherwise just use the specs
 * without looking here.
 */

grf {
   grfid: "MYMY";
   name: string(NAME);
   desc: string(DESCRIPTION);
   
   url: string(URL);
   version: 1;
   min_compatible_version: 0;
}

/* Each frigging tile a separate replacement (normal grass) */
replace (3981, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 0+1, 1, 64, 31, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3982, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 80+1, 1, 64, 31, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3983, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 160+1, 1, 64, 23, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3984, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 240+1, 1, 64, 23, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3985, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 320+1, 1, 64, 31, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3986, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 398+1, 1, 64, 31, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3987, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 478+1, 1, 64, 23, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3988, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 5581, 1, 64, 23, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3989, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 6381, 1, 64, 39, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3990, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 7181, 1, 64, 39, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3991, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 7981, 1, 64, 31, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3992, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 8781, 1, 64, 31, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3993, "gfx/terrain.png") { [ 9581, 1, 64, 39, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3994, "gfx/terrain.png") { [10381, 1, 64, 39, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3995, "gfx/terrain.png") { [11181, 1, 64, 31, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3996, "gfx/terrain.png") { [11961, 1, 64, 47, -31,-16 ] }
replace (3997, "gfx/terrain.png") { [12761, 1, 64, 15, -31, 0 ] }
replace (3998, "gfx/terrain.png") { [13561, 1, 64, 31, -31, -8 ] }
replace (3999, "gfx/terrain.png") { [14361, 1, 64, 31, -31, -8 ] }

or

Code: Select all

// Automatically generated by GRFCODEC. Do not modify!
// (Info version 32)
// Escapes: 2+ 2- 2< 2> 2u< 2u> 2/ 2% 2u/ 2u% 2* 2& 2| 2^ 2sto = 2s 2rst = 2r 2psto 2ror = 2rot 2cmp 2ucmp 2<< 2u>> 2>>
// Escapes: 71 70 7= 7! 7< 7> 7G 7g 7gG 7GG 7gg 7c 7C
// Escapes: D= = DR D+ = DF D- = DC Du* = DM D* = DnF Du<< = DnC D<< = DO D& D| Du/ D/ Du% D%
// Format: spritenum imagefile depth xpos ypos xsize ysize xrel yrel zoom flags

0 * 4 \d22 

# Action14 with grf info
1 * 105 14 "C" "INFO" 
    "T" "URL_" 7F "http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml" 00 
    "B" "VRSN" \w4 \dx00001443 
    "B" "MINV" \w4 \dx00000001 
    "B" "NPAR" \w1 00 
    "B" "PALS" \w1 "W" 
    "B" "BLTR" \w1 "8" 
    00 
00 

# Action8
2 * 303 08 08 "TEST" "Example NewGRF v5187M (bc7f26b35ece)" 00 "\8EExample NewGRF\0DDesigned to help you get started. Replaces grass by temperate grass\0D
  Programming: \89planetmaker\0D\98Graphics: \89Zephyris\0D\98License: \89GPL v2\0D\98Special thanks to \89Yexo, Hirundo, frosch, Terkhen, Rubidium\98 and \89Ammler
  \98 for their support and contributions" 00 
3 * 5 0A \b1 \b19 \w3981 

// Provide sprites for the normal grass tiles
4 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
5 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 81 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
6 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 161 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
7 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 241 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
8 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 321 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
9 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 399 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
10 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 479 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
11 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 559 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
12 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 639 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
13 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 719 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
14 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 799 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
15 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 879 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
16 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 959 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
17 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1039 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
18 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1119 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
19 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1197 1 64 47 -31 -16 normal 
20 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1277 1 64 15 -31 0 normal 
21 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1357 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
22 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1437 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal

or

Code: Select all

// Automatically generated by GRFCODEC. Do not modify!
// (Info version 32)
// Escapes: 2+ 2- 2< 2> 2u< 2u> 2/ 2% 2u/ 2u% 2* 2& 2| 2^ 2sto = 2s 2rst = 2r 2psto 2ror = 2rot 2cmp 2ucmp 2<< 2u>> 2>>
// Escapes: 71 70 7= 7! 7< 7> 7G 7g 7gG 7GG 7gg 7c 7C
// Escapes: D= = DR D+ = DF D- = DC Du* = DM D* = DnF Du<< = DnC D<< = DO D& D| Du/ D/ Du% D%
// Format: spritenum imagefile depth xpos ypos xsize ysize xrel yrel zoom flags

0 * 4 \d40 

1 * 105 14 "C" "INFO" 
"T" "URL_" 7F "http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml" 00 
"B" "VRSN" \w4 \dx00000001 
"B" "MINV" \w4 \dx00000000 
"B" "NPAR" \w1 00 
"B" "PALS" \w1 "W" 
"B" "BLTR" \w1 "8" 
00 
00 
2 * 303 08 08 "MYMY" "Example NewGRF v5187M (bc7f26b35ece)" 00 "\8EExample NewGRF\0DDesigned to help you get started. Replaces grass by temperate grass
  \0DProgramming: \89planetmaker\0D\98Graphics: \89Zephyris\0D\98License: \89GPL v2\0D\98Special thanks to \89Yexo, Hirundo, frosch, Terkhen, Rubidium\98 and 
  \89Ammler\98 for their support and contributions" 00 

3 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3981 
4 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
5 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3982 
6 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 81 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
7 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3983 
8 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 161 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
9 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3984 
10 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 241 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
11 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3985 
12 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 321 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
13 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3986 
14 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 399 1 64 31 -31 0 normal 
15 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3987 
16 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 479 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
17 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3988 
18 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 559 1 64 23 -31 0 normal 
19 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3989 
20 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 639 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
21 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3990 
22 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 719 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
23 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3991 
24 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 799 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
25 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3992 
26 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 879 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
27 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3993 
28 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 959 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
29 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3994 
30 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1039 1 64 39 -31 -8 normal 
31 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3995 
32 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1119 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
33 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3996 
34 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1197 1 64 47 -31 -16 normal 
35 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3997 
36 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1277 1 64 15 -31 0 normal 
37 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3998 
38 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1357 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal 
39 * 5 0A \b1 \b1 \w3999 
40 gfx/terrain.png 8bpp 1437 1 64 31 -31 -8 normal

or

...

surely allow some personal freedom on how to express yourself. Just like you can pick a slightly different colour or make an edge of a vehicle more or less round.

Posted: **14 Apr 2014 20:37**

andythenorth wrote:WTFPL http://www.wtfpl.net

I like this. Isn't that the same license that the politicians think was granted to them by the Magna Carta?

planetmaker wrote:I'll just assume you act stupid.

I tried to patent the process, but some politician claimed prior art.

We're talking of source code ...

Agreed that source code can and should be protected.
I also agree that including a source code document with a release is proper form and often mandatory under certain licenses.
My appologies ... I should have been more clear ... considering that decompiling a .grf file produces a graphics file along with a raw (uncommented) .nfo file which of course is not a properly commented source code, that .nfo file is what I was refering to.

Posted: **14 Apr 2014 22:37**

wallyweb wrote:My appologies ... I should have been more clear ... considering that decompiling a .grf file produces a graphics file along with a raw (uncommented) .nfo file which of course is not a properly commented source code, that .nfo file is what I was refering to.

just because the thing you read went through 5 layers of processing and compiling, it does not invalidate the copyright of the original work.

if you decompile a grf, exchange the graphics, and recompile it, the copyright of the code still applies.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 00:43**

Eddi wrote:
wallyweb wrote:My appologies ... I should have been more clear ... considering that decompiling a .grf file produces a graphics file along with a raw (uncommented) .nfo file which of course is not a properly commented source code, that .nfo file is what I was refering to.
just because the thing you read went through 5 layers of processing and compiling, it does not invalidate the copyright of the original work.

if you decompile a grf, exchange the graphics, and recompile it, the copyright of the code still applies.

What is the original work?
If someone studies the NewGRF specifications and follows those specifications when composing a piece of .nfo code, that piece of code cannot be original. If that someone deviates from the specification, there is an exceedingly good chance that the code will fail. At best, only the author(s) of the specification can lay any claim of originality.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 05:40**

wallyweb wrote: What is the original work?

wikipedia wrote: "An original work is one not received from others nor one copied from or based upon the work of others. It is a work created with a unique style and substance."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Originality

I.e., it can only be original as a result of independent creative effort. "Independent" meaning not being copied in whole or in part from something already existing. "Creative" meaning that it owns substantiality, i.e. there has to be sufficient skill and labour expended in its creation.

In the end, only a court would decide about both premises.

In case of computer software, the programming language being used in writing it is irrelevant.

wallyweb wrote: [...] At best, only the author(s) of the specification can lay any claim of originality.

The specification in question is nfo/grf which is under the GPL (some small parts are derived from original TTD, which might be troublesome).

regards
Michael

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 08:15**

wallyweb wrote:What is the original work?
If someone studies the NewGRF specifications and follows those specifications when composing a piece of .nfo code, that piece of code cannot be original.

of course it can, once it passes a level of triviality. just like composing a musical piece. picking 1 out of 12 possible notes is not creative works, but recently a court decided that already 8 measures of notes can constitute an "original work" and thus fall under copyright. the amount of "creativity" needed to fall under copyright is traditionally judged very low, and no aesthetic or other measurements may be used to judge whether it's under copyright.

i think you heavily underestimate the amount of creativity that goes into code. (or general set design)

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 08:45**

Eddi wrote:i think you heavily underestimate the amount of creativity that goes into code.

Perhaps I do, but then having authored some GRFs, I can't help but think about where I derived my .nfo from. I do license my code as GPL, but more in credit to the creator(s) of the specs than to my own feeble efforts.

(or general set design)

Now there I have no question. The intricacies of a set can only be considered as original work.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 08:52**

Eddi wrote: i think you heavily underestimate the amount of creativity that goes into code.

Isn´t your code auto-generated?

regards
Michael

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 08:59**

michael blunck wrote:
Eddi wrote: i think you heavily underestimate the amount of creativity that goes into code.
Isn´t your code auto-generated?

that doesn't mean it creates itself out of thin air

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 10:44**

I... guess that combining licenses are allowed. Wikipedia implements this (to be specific, CC-BY-SA and GPL), even sometimes for the same picture, for example.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 10:52**

YNM wrote:I... guess that combining licenses are allowed. Wikipedia implements this (to be specific, CC-BY-SA and GPL), even sometimes for the same picture, for example.

There's a difference between you combining two items with different licenses to a derived item (which then generally must fulfill the license requirements as stated by the licenses for each individual item) and you, as creator, dual-licensing your work by stating that it can be used under the set of license A or - at your option - license B.

As creator of any work or art, I always have the right to set any conditions on the usage of my work. Thus I can also choose to say that people can use it under set of conditions A or set of conditions B.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 15:01**

As the resulting NewGRF is merely a work of the people who combined the codes and the sprites, then dual-licensing it is just the same as if you have a work not derived from anywhere and dual license it. Other than you can actually dual-license it, you kept in spirit with both of the license of the works you based on.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 15:23**

YNM wrote:As the resulting NewGRF is merely a work of the people who combined the codes and the sprites, then dual-licensing it is just the same as if you have a work not derived from anywhere and dual license it. Other than you can actually dual-license it, you kept in spirit with both of the license of the works you based on.

Except *you* cannot decide to dual-license any work from anyone else. Nor can you dual-license any derivative, if you use just "ingredients" with different licenses. Everyone of the authors has to agree to *all* licenses of a product. And then all licenses apply to the whole product.

In rare cases, you can split a product, and then assign different licenses to different parts. That is not called dual licensed, though. This argument does not work well for NewGRFs where code and the normal 8bpp 1x-zoom sprites form an integral part of the grf itself.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 15:38**

Then either Purno or Yoshi should be asked for permissions to use their work, free from any license. Or one of them have to dual-license their work that's gonna be used in the NewGRF.

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 15:41**

YNM wrote:Then either Purno or Yoshi should be asked for permissions to use their work, free from any license. Or one of them have to dual-license their work that's gonna be used in the NewGRF.

As Yoshi said that his work on DACH set is GPL... it's done

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 15:50**

Licensing is fun eh? It definitely makes playing ottd a lot more enjoyable. Maybe we could start a whole new subforum about it?

Find yourself getting a headache about this? Try the following simple remedy.
Stand in front of a mirror and repeat 5 times "Just use the GPL".

Then all is good and it means I can steal all your stuff to put in my sets.

In other news, WTFPL is GPL compatible, another reason I'm considering switching to WTFPL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL

Posted: **15 Apr 2014 16:24**

Yeah... Public licensed things are the gold standard so your works are always compatible

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