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Nexus (Tyne and Wear PTE) are introducing one over the next year too...

Pop card

Also being planned for LM as well; probably for the wider Centro area.

In Norwich they're going to introduce money rather than bartering with livestock and vegetables.

...I thought that they were planning on using excess digits and teeth...

EXTspotter wrote:...I thought that they were planning on using excess digits and teeth...

They're not too keen on parting with those.

Dave W wrote:Also being planned for LM as well; probably for the wider Centro area.

As far as I know, it seems the LM one and the Centro one will be different, seeming as LM are trialling theirs between Worcester and Kiddy only.

Kevo00 wrote:Walrus is presumably a Beatles reference, from the song 'I Am the Walrus' from 'Magical Mystery Tour', so it fits quite well.

teccuk wrote:
A national card wouldn't work unless either:

- its pre-pay only, not direct debit etc, protecting people against massive debts
- our transport system was run in an efficient manner for the benefit of the public without the interference of the profit motive.

I really don't see what the profit motive has to do with this. If anything, a 100% for profit structure should hasten the introduction of cards because it cuts down on cash handling for which you have to pay staff a trust and skill premium (which is partly why London buses, a state owned enterprise, are so keen on it). It also costs money to bank cash. Supermarkets give cashback precisely because it cuts down on the amount of money they have to bank.

Its rather the problem that, as Jamie points out, there are too many companies and probably that such cards are not included in franchise agreements. Also, TOCs have invested millions in cash and card taking machines in recent years and they aren't anywhere near needing renewal. Although, an anytime ticket from MKC to Euston is the same price by both LM and Virgin so introduction should not be a problem for certain fare types. Perhaps it could be introduced first in the Network Railcard zone with loadable Network Railcard and then expanded. Perhaps it could also be used as the redemption mechanism for internet tickets instead of your debit card.

Yes I suppose you have a point. Let me rephrase to say that, "more effective regulation or a franchise arrangement for services". I'm not really thinking long distance rail here, more local and regional buses and rail. People forget that control of bus operators even by PTE's is very light and 'forcing' them to join a cashless card system does not appear to be legal... open to debate... but no-one has managed it.

Where you have multiple operators there will be arguments over the share of fares, and operators are likely to have different rates for day tickets for example. Do you level 'up' to the most expensive?

Removing cash from the equation not only cuts costs but reduces kerb dwell time, so why aren't the major operators queuing up? The major player in any city is unlikely to have much motivation for a multi operator system as this undermines the pseudo-monopoly position.

It is almost impossible to have sensible, workable, affordable, smart card systems where you have private bus operators in provincial environments, especially if there is no PTA.

A nice psudeo solution to all the different regional cards could be having them bill the other PTE

For example I take my walrus card to London and swipe it the computer recognises it and sends the bill to my account with Mersey travel. There is some delay as that information has to go all the way up the country but it should be possible and not too noticeable..

Ed, wrote:A nice psudeo solution to all the different regional cards could be having them bill the other PTE

For example I take my walrus card to London and swipe it the computer recognises it and sends the bill to my account with Mersey travel. There is some delay as that information has to go all the way up the country but it should be possible and not too noticeable..

Ah, but you're forgetting that would require some degree of joined-up thinking from those elected to make these decisions


As for the way the PTEs (or ITAs) manage bus services: Since the deregulation in the 80s, PTEs have not had much more say over bus services than even local authorities in non-PTE areas- Certainly far less than LT/TfL have had since the 40s. What they have had is a larger subsidy pot and dense populations, making them an attractive market for private operators. To give Huddersfield as an example, at de-regulation the former Metro depots in Halifax, Huddersfield, Bradford and Leeds became Yorkshire Rider in a management buy-out. Other than a conservative repaint the services were largely unchanged. Roll on 15 years and they were bought out by Badgerline, which became FirstGroup. Now in Huddersfield First operates most of the services, especially North and West of the centre- but in the last few years services have consolidated on main core routes, and several significant centres of population have had their services cut. On some routes several competitors run rival services, but only at certain times of day- tickets are not necessarily valid on rival services so passengers have to pay more. There is little Metro can do to prevent this at present, but they have applied to the MoT to be given the power to grant 'Quality Bus Contracts' which I imagine is a heavily watered-down version of the powers TfL currently have over buses in London.

Centro too are thinking about imposing Quality standards. Which would be far better than the current system of NXWM's monopoly over nearly everything, with a couple of "Man with a few buses he bought instead of cars company" running a 2-hourly service on an otherwise 10-minute frequency route. I suppose they get the concessionary fares back from the council and that's what keeps them going... - since the cost of a smallish bus is actually only in the region of about £5,000 for a 10 year old.

47434 wrote: Ah, but you're forgetting that would require some degree of joined-up thinking from those elected to make these decisions

Japan do it. All JR Passes are valid on other JR systems (Suica, Toica, ICOCA, SUGOCA) and even on other JR Vending machines (which results in a very odd situation at Kyoto station which is run by JR West, but the vending machines round the back under the Shinkansen tracks are run by JR Central!). There are also almost always 2 smartcard systems in each region (one JR, one amalgamation of private railways and buses) which are interoperable.

It certainly would be nice, but thenagain Japanese systems don't incorporate "capping" or anything more advanced than simple debit deduction. When problems happen with ticketing, who's responsibility is it then? The whole oyster cap is a great idea, but it does complicate the system immensely.

One would think it would be in a company like First's interests to invest in a card system, considering that they could monitor customer habits Tesco like. But then the bus industry now seems to be an asset based industry with little interest in expanding beyond the concessionary fares market - actually doing something entrepreneurial would not seem to be the thing. Ironic considering that I once was at a seminar whe the former CEO of Go-Ahead called concessionary fares in the old PTE areas a 'Marxist wealth transfer'.

All cards must be ITSO certified (Oyster excepted but they are moving to ITSO compliance), which means that if the option was there, they could inter-operate. The framework is there, it just requires the tie-up. The government is not allowed to force a "national card", as it would be anti-competitive, but they have got in place a system of if companies wanted to, they can offer through smart tickets.

Cards themselves are in two parts - the journey element (TYP) and a cash card - the cash card bit requires a payment operator to back it up. The ENCTS (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) card is ITSO and can be accepted by any local bus service with an ITSO reader.

Local transport authorities like MerseyTravel, Centro, WYPTE, etc are looking to offer something interoperable within their own remit to kickstart the ball rolling and encourage more ITSO compliant ETM (Electronic Ticket Machines) into buses.

First have signed with Almex to replace all of their ETMs with ITSO compliance starting early next year. Arriva have their own plans. Hertfordshire are rolling out a majority INIT ETM system. Stagecoach have ITSO compliant ETMs already in rollout.

I hope this clears it up for you all.

Unfortunately the greatest advantage of ISTO - Pay as you go - seems to be much more difficult to roll out. Stagecoach have had smartcards on their buses in Cambridge for almost 2 years now, but they do nothing more than store season tickets. Even on the busway where they launched a whole new scheme and mandated ISTO readers, the closest they could get to ISTO was a number of stored journeys (ie, you'd buy a block of 10 journeys from Oakingham to Cambridge at a discount and load them onto the card).

I really have no idea what's happening in the WM. All NXWM buses now seem to be ISTO-compliant, but they're currently only used for concessionary passes.

JamieLei wrote:Unfortunately the greatest advantage of ISTO - Pay as you go - seems to be much more difficult to roll out. Stagecoach have had smartcards on their buses in Cambridge for almost 2 years now, but they do nothing more than store season tickets. Even on the busway where they launched a whole new scheme and mandated ISTO readers, the closest they could get to ISTO was a number of stored journeys (ie, you'd buy a block of 10 journeys from Oakingham to Cambridge at a discount and load them onto the card).

I really have no idea what's happening in the WM. All NXWM buses now seem to be ISTO-compliant, but they're currently only used for concessionary passes.

No, ITSO is a set of standards to perform contactless transactions - PAYG or contracted, it doesn't matter. Season tickets are a TYP product on a pass - which is a stored value on the card, corresponding with what you have bought. The cash element of it is also ITSO but a seperate set of values and different type of chip to a basic smart card. Its very complex and I recommend you read the standards on the ITSO site - but the basic outcomes are: you can interoperate. One simple example - the ENCTS pass.

JamieLei wrote:Unfortunately the greatest advantage of ISTO - Pay as you go - seems to be much more difficult to roll out.

And that's the bit I'd most want to see. I rarely use cash these days, it's a faff and I very often don't have any useful change. Bus drivers aren't typically pleased if you turn up with a £10 or £20 note (if they give change at all!), and considering I can do pretty much everything else I need to do in the world via electronic payment methods, why should buses be any different? The sooner I can simply swipe the ITSO card that I have in my pocket right now to get on the bus - just as I could in Minnesota (or, for that matter, London) - the better.

I can go swimming with my ITSO card, though, so I suppose that's something.

Kevo00 wrote:We need a national Oyster card, not a whole load of regionals.

We call this money.

Lankku wrote:

Kevo00 wrote:We need a national Oyster card, not a whole load of regionals.

We call this money.

Which would be a perfectly fine system if you could get change! It was no problem in Japan - anything smaller than an £80 note (the next smallest being an £8 note) could be broken down using the change machine on the bus with no problem!

JamieLei wrote:

Lankku wrote:

Kevo00 wrote:We need a national Oyster card, not a whole load of regionals.

We call this money.

Which would be a perfectly fine system if you could get change! It was no problem in Japan - anything smaller than an £80 note (the next smallest being an £8 note) could be broken down using the change machine on the bus with no problem!

In recent years I've had no problem with bus drivers accepting £5 notes, and even £10 notes most of the time, but then the way fares have risen Centrebus (one of our local operators) at least have realised that (a) with an average fare of over £2, being stingy over notes won't go down well with the public, and (b) Make sure the drivers have plenty of change when setting out. The company policy even stipulates that if a driver has insufficient change for a passenger using a £10 note, the passenger can pay at the end of the journey instead. A £20 or £50 would still not go down too well though.

Smart card would still be way superior though, because you simply don't have to worry about change, or whether a certain operator gives change. I still take buses a lot more when I'm in London than when I was in Milton Keynes or even now in York. The need for change is a big thing, especially when you don't know what the exact fare to somewhere will be.

I wonder how much newsagents will be hit? The number of times I've bought chewing gum simply because I needed bus change is enormous...