New graphics and using OpenGL?

[grater]

grater wrote:
No longer works (well) on older computers.

Works on win95, so this is old computer, I don't belive someone who has got internet (OTTD download source) has DOS or win 3x

The OpenGL version will not work on old computers, or will run very badly. One thing about OpenGL is that the mouse tends to move less smoothly with low framerates and this can make a game really unpleasent to play.

Splits the player/developer base.

What do you mean? Players will be still able to make model, some info file (like nowdays .nfo files), pack it to one file, and it will work Very Happy

Between those who play on old computers and/or prefer the non-3D and those who like the 3D, between those who make sprite graphics and those who make 3D models.

grater wrote:
May detract from the simplicity of the game somewhat.

It won't be UT engine but it can be perfect and simple

A more detailed 3D map and stuff doesn't make it any easier to do precision track-laying. For precision, nothing beats 2.5D isometric.

[MeusH]

Okay, grater, thanks for explaining.

Iridium, I saw your edited post, but you can change the gl_draw a bit, so it won't draw anything new if in fact there is nothing new, like landscape etc.
If train passes, there will be only need to draw tracks behind train, so train won't cause HOM.

[Born Acorn]

look what 3d games have done to classic games. They have ruined them.

Go and play Trainz 2004 if you want a 3d transport game.


BUT


it would be great if vehicles were 3d, but the terrain not 3d.

[Mad Dog McKill]

it would be great if vehicles were 3d, but the terrain not 3d.

I was thinking about something like this too... but is it possible?

[Celestar]

Such a system is possible, but we need to do some evaluation on how well it performs on different platforms. Keep in mind that we have a good number of platforms without hardware OpenGL support. As of now:

-BeOS
-Linux on x86-64 with ATi cards.
-BSD on x86-64 with NVidia (I think), not sure about the ATi situation.
-Not sure about PocketPC, Morpheus, Solaris and others.

I think we could provide both interfaces: SDL and OpenGL and the user can select which one should be used.

A more detailed 3D map and stuff doesn't make it any easier to do precision track-laying. For precision, nothing beats 2.5D isometric.

I don't agree. A full top-down 2D view (like in Railroad Tycoon) still is much better in that respect.

Celestar

[Bjarni]

I think we could provide both interfaces: SDL and OpenGL and the user can select which one should be used.

That would mean double work in some cases, but I think it's a nice idea anyway. The problem would be if we include wider curves. They will look ugly, but it's better to look ugly than not to be able to run the game.
The question would be how to maintain vehicle sets for both systems at the same time so they can always work in a network game together. It would be really bad if we get two different versions and one of them would be kicked out because the graphic artists makes their sets in 3D only

A more detailed 3D map and stuff doesn't make it any easier to do precision track-laying. For precision, nothing beats 2.5D isometric.

I don't agree. A full top-down 2D view (like in Railroad Tycoon) still is much better in that respect.

Celestar

We will never have anything that makes track laying harder. I hate when tracks are too hard to lay

[Born Acorn]

track building should be in two styles if wider curves arrive.

1. Dragging: great for long stretches.
2. RCT/Locomotion style: Excellent for junctions using wider curves.

[MeusH]

it would be great if vehicles were 3d, but the terrain not 3d.

Yes, yes, YES!

It has been made in rollercoaster tycoon, and it rules!

[iridium]

Just making my position clear:

* Against making the game look/feel that much different from how it does now
* Against making the game unusable for any current players
* For more possible levels of terrain
* For more possible levels of rotation with vehicles.
* For smooth zooming
* For making the game spend as little time rendering as possible

I'm quite sure that something could be written so that OpenGL doesn't have to render everything every screen refresh, too.

Oh, also Palette animations are possible using OpenGL - I have edited my original post.

[Mad Dog McKill]

Developers, I think you should always keep this in mind:

If a person who very very long ago played TTD, find out about OTTD, he should be able to play it without any difficulties. Even if there would 3d vehicles, curves or things of that sort.


Do not change OTTD into a game that is unrecognisable by true TTD players.


Do not mess with the fundamentals that make TTD what it is

[MeusH]

Iridium, what do you think, what format will vehicle models be?

[Born Acorn]

yeah but if someone has been playing all these new games, then goes the sourceforge to find openttd, looks at the graphics. He will probably play it and go pfft.

[KAH]

yeah but if someone has been playing all these new games, then goes the sourceforge to find openttd, looks at the graphics. He will probably play it and go pfft.

So? This is not a commercial title that needs to have a certain mainstream appeal for sales reasons. The TTD crowd is pretty big, and grows all the time, and I think this is a move away from it.

The new graphics systems and graphics look great, but as Mad Dog said, it doesn't look like TTD at all. For me, it will kill a lot of the "magic" of TTD, which OTTD has only improved to now. I hope you'll create a "classic" graphics set for people like us If you don't, I think you'll see a lot of people losing interest in the project.

[MeusH]

Hmm... so let's do this:

New graphics - http://doug.mudpuddle.co.nz/albums/ottd ... rails2.jpg
http://doug.mudpuddle.co.nz/albums/ottdwip/on_off.jpg

And 3D vehicles + OpenGL smooth zooming + OpenGL effects

That would be great mix I think

[Born Acorn]

I think the graphics should be interchangable. Like a switch before game starts up

[Joker]

I think the graphics should be interchangable. Like a switch before game starts up

Maybe even separate downloads, so that people needn't bother downloading the graphics and renderer they don't want.

Do not change OTTD into a game that is unrecognisable by true TTD players.


Do not mess with the fundamentals that make TTD what it is

However, I think "the fundamentals that make TTD what it is" are in the game system, not the graphics.
We should also keep in mind that computers made quite an advance in last ten years. TTD was developed to run nicely on my 486 DX2/80 with 4MB RAM (Well, not that nicely, I had to have special config.sys and autoexec.bat for it ) Today you can find last pieces of 486 computers in second hand computer store sold at a price of cheap pocket calculator (about 5 Euro for computer without monitor and peripherals). If you raise the requirements of original TTD by 10 times, it would still be "runs on everything" game today.
I mean, TTD was limited by hardware when it was developed. Those limitations are gone now. So lets try new features, better graphics etc.

[Mad Dog McKill]

I think the graphics should be interchangable. Like a switch before game starts up

Maybe even separate downloads, so that people needn't bother downloading the graphics and renderer they don't want.

Hopefully OTTD could become something like Ultima Online where 2d and 3d versions could co-exist and people could play with each other using both. (maybe only for default graphics since doing custom graphics for both would require a lot fo work)

[DaleStan]

As I've said before, if you remove the current graphics engine, you will lose all redrawing work that has been done, and all the .GRF compatibility work.
Also, you will lose the massive quantity of work that has gone into new vehicle sets for TTDPatch, because they'll suddendly be incompatible with OTTD.

I love the ideas/features of new industries/cargo types/climates, bigger maps, and non-uniform stations, but leave my graphics engine alone.

[MeusH]

Oh, DaleStan, practice makes master

I'd like to have at least 3D vehicles (iridium, what extension of model?).
There won't be such a problem to make a model, mostly because modeling is way too easier than making sprites.

Oh, and landscape redraw still would be avaible if we mix 2D everything with 3D vehicles.

[mdhowe]

As I've said before, if you remove the current graphics engine, you will lose all redrawing work that has been done, and all the .GRF compatibility work.

I fully agree, I think the best way to go would be to fork OTTD into 3d and original graphics versions. So those who want one version don have to download the other one.

I personally like the original graphics better but I am in no way opposed to the 3d ones.