Pikka's Basic Industries (PBI) - 1.5 6th of September 2008

[Expresso]

ECS industries also have the same problems, but amount are much higher (up to 20 times higher for some industries). Is it playable for you, or even these huge stockpiles are unacceptable for you?

Well, larger stockpiles could be nice; but then again if you've got 100+ trains on a station, all delivering coal to it, that stockpile is going to be full sooner or later.

NOTE: I haven't played a game with ECS yet, since OpenTTD takes ages to generate a map (1024x1024 or larger, which is my preference) with the ECS vectors..

[George]

NOTE: I haven't played a game with ECS yet, since OpenTTD takes ages to generate a map (1024x1024 or larger, which is my preference) with the ECS vectors..

made a test. It took 12 minutes here to generate 1024x1024 map while running in backgound on my Celeron 1.73GHz CPU. I can't call it ages

[Raichase]

I can't call it ages

Well, considering that a normal map is a few seconds, it's quite a time jump...

[George]

I can't call it ages

Well, considering that a normal map is a few seconds, it's quite a time jump...

But your game lasts at least several days? So, generating a map is not a big delay, especially because you can do it in background?

[wallyweb]

...

I as well enjoy the resource/depletion and stockpiling features. Indeed, one of my suggestions may have been partly responsible for some of it. I also agree that some players may find it a bit too much to handle where they may be only interested in moving stuff from point A to point B. Perhaps a parameter setting to turn it off (Yes ... It should be on by default) is in order.

The other question, for those of us who like it, do the closings happen much too quickly? Lets look at the closing mechanisms:
Lack of service - Get rid of this - Its unrealistic and for the OTTD players with larger maps, it is also unnecessarily difficult. As long as there is mineral in the ground or a supplier (a supporting industry) on the map an industry should remain. Non-resource industries should be given a reasonable period of time (5 or 10 years?) for a new supplier to be generated by the game or built/prospected by the player. Prospecting needs to have a higher chance of success and be a lot less costly. (I'm getting an idea on this ... look in the Suggestion forum later today ).
Depletion - The player should have a reasonable idea as to what remains in the ground. He can haul it away quickly with large trains or he can stretch it out by using small trains. PikkaBird's industries does this well. He just needs to do a better job of documenting it. Extracting mineral from the ground to the loading dock/bay should not be so dependent upon frequency of service, but rather on whether the whole load is transported. It would be up to the player to provide more trains or longer ones, so that the loading dock/bay is emptied every trip.

Have I missed anything?

[PikkaBird]

...

I as well enjoy the resource/depletion and stockpiling features. Indeed, one of my suggestions may have been partly responsible for some of it. I also agree that some players may find it a bit too much to handle where they may be only interested in moving stuff from point A to point B. Perhaps a parameter setting to turn it off (Yes ... It should be on by default) is in order.

Without the stockpiling and resource limiting, the grf becomes fairly pointless. If you don't want resource limiting or stockpiling, you may as well stick to the default industries. But that's just my opinion; as I've said before, anyone who wants to modify PBI to their own tastes is welcome to do so.

The other question, for those of us who like it, do the closings happen much too quickly? Lets look at the closing mechanisms:
Lack of service - Get rid of this - Its unrealistic and for the OTTD players with larger maps, it is also unnecessarily difficult. As long as there is mineral in the ground or a supplier (a supporting industry) on the map an industry should remain.

Lack of service closures only affect secondary industries - they have never affected primary industries. PBI doesn't change this behaviour.

Depletion - The player should have a reasonable idea as to what remains in the ground. He can haul it away quickly with large trains or he can stretch it out by using small trains. PikkaBird's industries does this well. He just needs to do a better job of documenting it.

I revealed the formula used for closing down depleted mines on page 3 of this thread. It's almost depressingly simple. But I'm really pleased with how realistically it works, with mines slowly winding down when they get close to their estimated reserves (rather than steaming along to 100% and then suddenly disappearing).

Extracting mineral from the ground to the loading dock/bay should not be so dependent upon frequency of service, but rather on whether the whole load is transported. It would be up to the player to provide more trains or longer ones, so that the loading dock/bay is emptied every trip.

Such a change to the station rating system is beyond the scope of this (or any) grf. I don't really know what you have in mind, either. Perhaps you could describe your idea in more detail?

[wallyweb]

Without the stockpiling and resource limiting, the grf becomes fairly pointless. If you don't want resource limiting or stockpiling, you may as well stick to the default industries. But that's just my opinion; as I've said before, anyone who wants to modify PBI to their own tastes is welcome to do so.

I have to agree.

Lack of service closures only affect secondary industries - they have never affected primary industries. PBI doesn't change this behaviour.

Either way, if an industry has a reasonable chance of being supplied (a supplier exists on the map), it shouldn't close down.

I revealed the formula used for closing down depleted mines on page 3 of this thread. It's almost depressingly simple. But I'm really pleased with how realistically it works, with mines slowly winding down when they get close to their estimated reserves (rather than steaming along to 100% and then suddenly disappearing).

Copy or move it to the first post where it will be more easily found?

Extracting mineral from the ground to the loading dock/bay should not be so dependent upon frequency of service, but rather on whether the whole load is transported. It would be up to the player to provide more trains or longer ones, so that the loading dock/bay is emptied every trip.

Such a change to the station rating system is beyond the scope of this (or any) grf. I don't really know what you have in mind, either. Perhaps you could describe your idea in more detail?

Does the station rating system determine the production efficiency of an industry? What inputs does the station rating system consider?

[PikkaBird]

Does the station rating system determine the production efficiency of an industry? What inputs does the station rating system consider?

It depends what you mean by "production efficiency of an industry". The station rating determines how much of the industry's production is delivered to each station (like this). You seem to be suggesting a change to that system, but how?

[wallyweb]

The station rating determines how much of the industry's production is delivered to each station (like this). You seem to be suggesting a change to that system, but how?

No ... that part is fine in so much as the company's rating is used to determine how much of the industry's output it gets when there is a competing station after the same lot.
The part I am focused on is the total industry production, before it is divided among competing stations. What affects the rate of processing of an industry's accepted stuffs into deliverable stuffs?

[PikkaBird]

Oh, I see. I thought you were still talking about primary industries.

In PBI, secondary industries have three levels of production. It varies slightly from industry to industry, but generally they process around 20, 50 or 100 units of cargo per cycle for low, medium or high production respectively. You can see some approximate monthly processing rates on the old UKRSI page.

The main determinant is how much is waiting to be processed. More waiting = higher production. Additionally, industries that produce something will only produce at low rate if none of its cargo was transported last month (I may make this clearer in the GRF. I'm sure a lot of people complaining that they're always filling the stockpiles are not transporting away from the secondary industry).

[Ameecher]

(I may make this clearer in the GRF. I'm sure a lot of people complaining that they're always filling the stockpiles are not transporting away from the secondary industry).

I would suggest that. When I have stuff being transported away I've never managed to overface the stockpiles for longer than a few seconds.

[wallyweb]

Thanks Pikka. Yes, that was what I was looking for. Nothing there to cause an idle industry to shut down.

[PlasmaDavid]

Hmm, I've got the GRF installed and activated but it doesn't seem to be working or something, my industries still only spit out produce at the same time as they get raw materials. No steady release or anything...: |

[Kolbur]

Hello, I have played around with PBI quite some time now and I want to make some comments on it:

First, I really like your grf.
The stockpiles are very important for me too, but for some industries I have to agree that the sizes are just too low. Especially the stockpiles of brewery and food processing plant. It just needs 2 or 3 trains in a relativly short time and the stockpile goes from 0 to full and some cargo stays at the platform. That way it's almost impossible to maintain the production at high level without leaving some cargo at the platform. Using cars to redeliver this cargo is a workaround, but i don't like that. On the other hand, i never had any problems with the stockpiles of the oil refinery and the factory.

Another thing I have noticed is that farms and woods don't close down over time. I can see why, but it has the effect that their production goes up over time and after some playing it is like 1000 or even 2000 per month while coal, ore and oil production stays down due to the shutting down feature. So it gets a bit hard to distribute all this production with the limited capabilities of secondary industries. Perhaps the production decreasing and increasing algorithm could be changed so that the average raw material industry without limited resources levels off at a certain amount of production with exceptions being possible.

[White Rabbit]

I noticed that the food processing plant's roads uses real sprites, but the engineer's yard doesn't. Can't the food processing plant work the same way as the engineer's yard so that other road sets are better supported?

[Dave]

Magic Word would do well to go somewhere there, Mr Rabbit.

EDIT:

Kolbur - I wonder if you're perhaps using very long trains?

[Kolbur]

Magic Word would do well to go somewhere there, Mr Rabbit.

EDIT:

Kolbur - I wonder if you're perhaps using very long trains?

In this game I use trains with a length of 5 tiles. I don't consider this long.

[Dave]

No, nor do I. Just wondered the length of your trains.

[PikkaBird]

but it has the effect that their production goes up over time and after some playing it is like 1000 or even 2000 per month

That's an OTTD "feature". Industries don't as reliably increase production in TTD(P).

[Emperor Jake]

Is there a way of turning off the way industries stockpile and accept only so much?
I would like the extra industries but with the simplicity of the original industries.