George's Long vehicles V4 beta4 is out (07 sep 2007)

[George]

You mean the white things on the roof I highlighted?
I actually don't know, they might be openings in the roof itself, like trapdoors to open in the warm season (remedies some buses had before they introduced air conditioning).

Yes. Should I draw them? On what models? Does Fiat 421 has such things? How do they look?

[Snail]

Yes. Should I draw them?

Up to you: so far I couldn't find any pictures of the Saviem taken from above, so I'm not sure about their exact position.

Does Fiat 421 has such things? How do they look?

I'm pretty sure that neither the 421's nor the Inbus had those openings (I used to travel on those buses until they were discarded): the roofs were closed and some of the windows were used as emergency exits. The first buses here I've seen them on were the Iveco 491 CityClass.

[George]

Yes. Should I draw them?

Up to you: so far I couldn't find any pictures of the Saviem taken from above, so I'm not sure about their exact position.

Does Fiat 421 has such things? How do they look?

I'm pretty sure that neither the 421's nor the Inbus had those openings (I used to travel on those buses until they were discarded): the roofs were closed and some of the windows were used as emergency exits. The first buses here I've seen them on were the Iveco 491 CityClass.

But at the picture it is Renault (Saviem), that is less modern than Inbus. Strange.
So, please make a search. If you'll find photos or drawings, that represent such stuff, let me know, I'll add them.

[eis_os]

Well, different countries different laws, I don't think in all countries emergy exits on the roof are forced by law... So in one country you can see a bus with it in the other it's simple not needed

[The Irish]

You mean the white things on the roof I highlighted?

I actually don't know, they might be openings in the roof itself, like trapdoors to open in the warm season (remedies some buses had before they introduced air conditioning).

Yep, and the latest models in my hometown (Schaffhausen/Switzerland) have them again, because they figured out that airconditioning didn't have any effect except from using sh*t-loads of energy. So they went back to simple vents and holes in the roof.

I can see the point. the City buses are usualy stopping every minute and have their doors open a lot of the time, so any hot air can come in. And all the drivers got the flew, because the drivers cabin was the only place it worked more or less.

[Snail]

I found a couple of pics of an S210 from above: the roof has got no holes as I remembered The same was true for the 421.

I agree with you guys, I think it must be a matter of laws. Urban buses around here have never had any hatches in the roofs, except for modern ones (mostly Iveco/Irisbus CityClass). They introduced hatches exactly at the same time as air conditioning: what they usually do is, turn A/C on only when it's really hot (and we do get hot summers here ), and travel with open hatches during the rest of the warmer seasons.

2George: you'll notice some longitudinal lines running on the S210's roof (they were there to reinforce the roof), do you think you could model them on your Inbus' roofs if it's not too much work? It was a kind of unique feature.

By the way, what do you think of the 411?

[Greyfur]

OK, good news. I have almost all the buses that are in LongBuses from me redrawn to the propper scale. Tonight and tommorow I will finish the last ones (Skoda 706RTO, Tatra 27/91 Diesel and Ikarus 620/630). So, if anzthing goes right, I could send them tommorow to George.

I have a question. Is it possible to change the time needed to load/unload passangers depending on how many doors the bus have ? And would that be possible considering that for example at Skoda 706RTO the 1door version and 2door version are just refits ?

[George]

I found a couple of pics of an S210 from above: the roof has got no holes as I remembered The same was true for the 421.

What is in the front part? Like a deepening across the roof?

you'll notice some longitudinal lines running on the S210's roof (they were there to reinforce the roof), do you think you could model them on your Inbus' roofs if it's not too much work? It was a kind of unique feature.

I'll try but not sure in the result They are too small

By the way, what do you think of the 411?

There is no font and rare views. Could you find some more? Also some photos would be handy.

[George]

OK, good news. I have almost all the buses that are in LongBuses from me redrawn to the propper scale. Tonight and tommorow I will finish the last ones (Skoda 706RTO, Tatra 27/91 Diesel and Ikarus 620/630). So, if anything goes right, I could send them tommorow to George.

I'm waiting

I have a question. Is it possible to change the time needed to load/unload passangers depending on how many doors the bus have?

Yes

And would that be possible considering that for example at Skoda 706RTO the 1door version and 2door version are just refits ?

Yes.

[Snail]

Snail wrote:

I found a couple of pics of an S210 from above: the roof has got no holes as I remembered The same was true for the 421.

What is in the front part? Like a deepening across the roof?

I think it's something going near the driver's seat, like a radio transmitter or something. It's my best guess, I've never seen that on those buses here.

Snail wrote:

you'll notice some longitudinal lines running on the S210's roof (they were there to reinforce the roof), do you think you could model them on your Inbus' roofs if it's not too much work? It was a kind of unique feature.

I'll try but not sure in the result They are too small

Ok.

There is no font and rare views. Could you find some more? Also some photos would be handy.

Sure. I'll post a bunch of pics here. Some refer to the original vehicle, some to a model, which is very well done though.
The drawings I posted were the original ones, I got them from a transport company. I dunno if there are others around, that bus is so old. You can figure out front and rear part quite nicely from the pics though (the rear part was the same for the single and articulated versions): width is written on the drawings (it's 2.5 meters).

Some data about it:
Production years: 1956-1970
Weight: 9300 kg (single or s.), 14900 kg (articulated or a.)
Power: 145 hp (s.), 170 hp (a.) same engine, but overpowered for the heavier articulated version
Max speed: 55 (s.), 57 (a.)
Capacity: 20 seats + 46 standing (s.), 37 seats + 115 standing (a.)
Life: probably around 20 years

There were different liveries for that, usually in two colors (upper and lower parts). The most common were: light green + dark green (as in the pics); cream + red; white + yellow; light blue + dark blue; white + light blue; and the classic all orange + grey roof in the late years (after production stopped).

If you need anything more, feel free to ask.

Cheers!

[George]

What is in the front part? Like a deepening across the roof?

I think it's something going near the driver's seat, like a radio transmitter or something. It's my best guess, I've never seen that on those buses here.

Ok, I shall not draw it

There is no font and rare views. Could you find some more? Also some photos would be handy.

Sure. I'll post a bunch of pics here. Some refer to the original vehicle, some to a model, which is very well done though.
The drawings I posted were the original ones, I got them from a transport company.

Then why is articulated model is 30 sm lower, than a single one?

I dunno if there are others around, that bus is so old. You can figure out front and rear part quite nicely from the pics though (the rear part was the same for the single and articulated versions): width is written on the drawings (it's 2.5 meters).

And the front parts were different?

Some data about it:
Production years: 1956-1970
Weight: 9300 kg (single or s.), 14900 kg (articulated or a.)
Power: 145 hp (s.), 170 hp (a.) same engine, but overpowered for the heavier articulated version

what do you mean?

Max speed: 55 (s.), 57 (a.)
Capacity: 20 seats + 46 standing (s.), 37 seats + 115 standing (a.)
Life: probably around 20 years
There were different liveries for that, usually in two colors (upper and lower parts). The most common were: light green + dark green (as in the pics); cream + red; white + yellow; light blue + dark blue; white + light blue; and the classic all orange + grey roof in the late years (after production stopped).

I'll use two-colour scheme; may be one part would be in company colours.

[Snail]

The drawings I posted were the original ones, I got them from a transport company.

Then why is articulated model is 30 sm lower, than a single one?

Well, it's a matter of different bodywork furbishments (a bit like the different variants of the 421). The articulated 411 was very rare and it was built only with that bodywork, which was 25mm lower than the standard single 411. The front was slightly different too, as you can see on the picture (the rear part was the same). I'd say stick to the measures you found in the drawings, as they're original data.

The single 411 was more popular and it was built in different bodywork styles: the one which appears in the drawing and in the pics was the original one by Fiat. I could find a couple of pics of another bodywork, but no drawings, so I think it's too little for you to create another variant.

Power: 145 hp (s.), 170 hp (a.) same engine, but overpowered for the heavier articulated version

what do you mean?

The engine was the same, but as the articulated bus was heavier, they tweaked its engine in order to get some more hp out of it. I think they acted on the highest rpm (the engine ran faster). Once we get the needed callbacks, we could give the articulated variant a bit more power.

I'll use two-colour scheme; may be one part would be in company colours.

Ok. Would it be possible to draw two shades of company colors? A lighter and a darker one?

[George]

The drawings I posted were the original ones, I got them from a transport company.

Then why is articulated model is 30 sm lower, than a single one?

Well, it's a matter of different bodywork furbishments (a bit like the different variants of the 421). The articulated 411 was very rare and it was built only with that bodywork, which was 25mm lower than the standard single 411. The front was slightly different too, as you can see on the picture (the rear part was the same).

How can it be the same if it is 25sm lower? I cant understand it! Please, find more drawings. I'll stop untill then.

I'd say stick to the measures you found in the drawings, as they're original data.

But how can I draw it? 30sm is a whole pixel, and it is much in TTD's scale.

The single 411 was more popular and it was built in different bodywork styles: the one which appears in the drawing and in the pics was the original one by Fiat. I could find a couple of pics of another bodywork, but no drawings, so I think it's too little for you to create another variant.

Make a search. The results will help us to make a decision.

Power: 145 hp (s.), 170 hp (a.) same engine, but overpowered for the heavier articulated version

what do you mean?

The engine was the same, but as the articulated bus was heavier, they tweaked its engine in order to get some more hp out of it. I think they acted on the highest rpm (the engine ran faster). Once we get the needed callbacks, we could give the articulated variant a bit more power.

That makes it to break more often?

I'll use two-colour scheme; may be one part would be in company colours.

Ok. Would it be possible to draw two shades of company colors? A lighter and a darker one?

Yes.

[Snail]

How can it be the same if it is 25sm lower? I cant understand it! Please, find more drawings. I'll stop untill then.

Well, you see, this was a pretty typical thing about Italian buses until some time ago: the constructor created the basic technology (chassis, engine, suspension etc) and usually (but not always) proposed a bodywork for it; then, lots of independent firms proposed their own bodywork and interiors for that same chassis, and transport companies chose the one which suited their needs best.
I can understand it might sound a bit uncommon, but that's the way it worked here. You saw it with the 421 too, for which there were actually five or six available bodywork styles (even more than the ones we put in the set). So the constructor introduced the chassis, then suddenly many other firms produced particular variants, and each company purchased the one it thought was the best one.

I'm not making up things; if you don't believe me, I'll translate some lines I found on a webpage:
«In 1956 was introduced [the model] which would become the basis of Italian public transportation, used in many cities and towns. Its name was FIAT 411, built in many versions and furbished by many bodywork-producing firms: it was 11 meters long. There was even the 18 meter articulated version, with a vertical overpowered engine, owned by Turin's public transport company [where I got the drawings from]. It was even proposed as a trolleybus under the name of 2411». (You can find the page at http://www.filotram.it/new-autobus/sto-4-aut.htm, I translated the last bit of text).

So, you see, it's kind of a cultural thing. Maybe it sounds uncommon elsewhere, but here it was kind of the rule... by the way, you'll see that the two drawings come from the same source (Turin's public transport company): those two models were variants of the same bus, furbished by two different bodywork-producing firms (Cansa for the single and Seac-Viberti for the articulated), and so with differences in the number of axles, length, and height. Nevertheless, it'd make perfect sense to have them both available in TTD as "refit" variants, as they were simultaneously produced and used (by the same transport company!). It works the same way as for the four variants of the Fiat 421

I thought it'd be cool to add those two to your set, as you've got drawings and pics. The articulated 411 was produced by Seac only, so there's no need for more drawings (they'd be the same as the one you've got): and I frankly doubt I could find drawings for other bodywork variants of the single 411, as the one I found is quite rare itself (the bus is very old). If I could find a drawing of another variant, tho, it'd surely show different heights or windows/door schemes.
You see, as for most Italian buses, there wasn't "The" 411, but different variants of it. It'd be cool to have the articulated Seac and the single Cansa used in Turin.

If you wanna see other variants, there's a bunch of pics in the attachment. Three of them refer to the 411; they show two other bodywork variants, one built by Menarini, and the other built by Cansa (later called Cameri) for the Milan fleet (you'll notice the central door was larger than it was in the drawings). As you see, the Menarini looks quite different; it's the same bus (same chassis, same engine etc) with a different bodywork. Judging from the pics, I'd say its height should be lower than 3200 mm's too. That's how it worked here
The remaining pics show the 2411, the trolleybus variant of the 411. As you see, there were many variants built on that chassis.

It's still true now, to a smaller extent, as in Milan we've got modern Mercedes O405 buses furbished by a local firm (called Macchi); here's a pic of it
http://www.ferrovie.ch/milanotrasporti/ ... _marzo.jpg

I hope my explanation was understandable enough.

Snail wrote:

I'd say stick to the measures you found in the drawings, as they're original data.

But how can I draw it? 30sm is a whole pixel, and it is much in TTD's scale

Well, the articulated was lower in reality. It's up to you, maybe making them look the same height would make the models look better.

The engine was the same, but as the articulated bus was heavier, they tweaked its engine in order to get some more hp out of it. I think they acted on the highest rpm (the engine ran faster). Once we get the needed callbacks, we could give the articulated variant a bit more power.

That makes it to break more often?

Yeah

I'll use two-colour scheme; may be one part would be in company colours.

Ok. Would it be possible to draw two shades of company colors? A lighter and a darker one?

Yes.

Nice! So we could have a company-colored bus with the upper part in a lighter tone of the same color.

[George]

How can it be the same if it is 25sm lower? I cant understand it! Please, find more drawings. I'll stop untill then.

Well, you see, this was a pretty typical thing about Italian buses until some time ago: the constructor created the basic technology (chassis, engine, suspension etc) and usually (but not always) proposed a bodywork for it; then, lots of independent firms proposed their own bodywork and interiors for that same chassis, and transport companies chose the one which suited their needs best.

...

It's still true now, to a smaller extent, as in Milan we've got modern Mercedes O405 buses furbished by a local firm (called Macchi);
I hope my explanation was understandable enough.

Yes, but I don't like the way it was (from the point of drawing). I shall make one model from them and after that modify it slightly into the other models. Creating two independed models but similar models is a bad idea for me.

Well, the articulated was lower in reality. It's up to you, maybe making them look the same height would make the models look better.

Yes, I should do it thet way, the question is, what is better. To make articulated model higher or the single model lower? I think the second way is better.

[Snail]

Yes, I should do it thet way, the question is, what is better. To make articulated model higher or the single model lower? I think the second way is better.

I see your point. Yeah, I think you could start from the articulated one (it's the one which is lower tho, 2950mm against single's 3200mm). If one looks too ugly or disproportioned, you might think about using the same height if it looks better.

[George]

Test my first attempt. I need also life and model life

[RailJade]

Erm... ...I dont see any new Skoda Trucks in my game and I do have the required GRF files loaded for it, namely the AI for the Long vehicles.

[Colonel32]

well, they work for me - I can see only MT version, refitable, but it does't change - but that was intensional, I guess.

Just two comments:

1) If you could separate the MT from 706 -> Skoda 706 MT
2) There is a very bright pixels - looks kind of like a third wheel to me..

otherwise, it's a good start



I'll try to find lifetime data

[George]

well, they work for me - I can see only MT version, refitable, but it does't change - but that was intensional, I guess.

Yes

Just two comments:
1) If you could separate the MT from 706 -> Skoda 706 MT

Ok

2) There is a very bright pixels - looks kind of like a third wheel to me.

Will be fixed. I need more bug reports like this. For me the result looks so-so, but I can't find a way to improve it. So, I decided not to start working on other bodies, but to post this demo to make people test the cabin and chassis and show me the problematic places. After that I'd collect these suggestions and try to fix the truck. After that, when the basis is done, I'd start making bodies.

otherwise, it's a good start

I don't think so. The cabin has to look very rounded, but it does not.

I'll try to find lifetime data

Ok

P.S. Doesn't it generate warnings for you? I see default vehicles, that means AI manager is not loaded, and then SkodaTrucksw.grf has to generate warning.