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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:41 am 
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kamnet wrote:
From my understanding (IANAL), it would be acceptable to CCSP+ files with a Debian distro, even one that is paid for, since the purpose of distributing the files with Debian is not done with the intent of actually selling the files covered uncer CCSP+.
Just see http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/20 ... 00094.html


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:33 am 
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Eddi wrote:
I disagree here. MIDI files only contain the sheet music, there is no performing artist involved, only the composer has any rights to the file. This is in contrast to mp3 or wav files, which are generally a recording of some sort, so there is both the composer and the performing artist involved.


According to the Wikipedia entry for Performing Rights: "Performing rights are the right to perform music in public. It is part of copyright law and demands payment to the music’s composer/lyricist and publisher (with the royalties generally split 50/50 between the two)."

MIDI files are not pre-recorded, it is a digital form of sheet music that is performed on-demand by a synthesizer, at the request of an individual, and thus is a public performance. In most of the cases with the MIDI files we'll be using, the composer and publisher is going to be the same individual. This is what GPL doesn't touch, and what many composers gets antsy about.

Rubidium wrote:
Just see http: // lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2007/05/msg00094.html


Okay after reading that I understand clearly what is being debated. But, that brings me back around to the question I asked earlier -- with OpenSFX being distributed under CCSP+ 1.0, does that mean that it will NOT be included with a future Debian distro? If that is not the case, then I fail to see why it now matters with offering the same license for the music files. If that IS the case, then I see this as a moot point since (IMO) offering the music files is not as important as offering the sound files. The only way to havae either included is to make it downloadable during the installation as opposed to being made available with the distro. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in that regard.

I'm not opposed to GPL v2, I just want to make sure that this IS the right license to go with that covers the concerns of any of the composers who offer their works. The four users from the community here have already agreed to go ahead and license under GPL, and one of the other composers whose work I've posted (Kit "Monochrome" F) is also following and has informed me that GPL v2 is acceptable as far as he is concerned.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:23 pm 
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kamnet wrote:
OpenSFX being distributed under CCSP+ 1.0, does that mean that it will NOT be included with a future Debian distro?
Yes-ish. It won't be in main for sure, although there might a chance it will be included in 'non-free', but 'non-free' is not really part of Debian; most packages in there are just for support, e.g. the ATI video card driver.

kamnet wrote:
If that is not the case, then I fail to see why it now matters with offering the same license for the music files.
The whole 'does not show in Debian' issue is why I dislike CCSP+ 1.0, even for OpenSFX. However, if the only source of material is a CCSP+ 1.0 licensed databank of samples then you have to use that license, or not package it and thus not finish OpenSFX. So I decided that a finished OpenSFX that could not be sold is worth more for our users than an OpenSFX which was fully free and people could sell.

As it seems you are going to compose it yourself, or have good contact with the composers, licensing it under a freeer license would be better from a point of usefulness in Debian and its derivatives (and possibly other distributions).

kamnet wrote:
MIDI files are not pre-recorded, it is a digital form of sheet music that is performed on-demand by a synthesizer, at the request of an individual, and thus is a public performance. In most of the cases with the MIDI files we'll be using, the composer and publisher is going to be the same individual. This is what GPL doesn't touch, and what many composers gets antsy about.
Doesn't GPL touch that? The MIDI files would be the "source", the MIDI synthesizer is the "compiler" and the result of that would be the "application". In this case packaging the sound ("application") means that you need to add the license. Any modifications to it means that those modifications need to be clearly marked. So in fact it might be a quite strong license for MIDI files.

For example if someone uses the music for a movie that movie has to be GPL because it has been incorporated and as such that *if* you get the movie you have to get the sources of the movie which you then can distribute under GPL. This basically makes the music unuseable commercially (due to the licensing), which means that they have to ask the author of the song that can be found in the readme/copyright files for a relicense for their purposes (possibly with payment).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:29 pm 
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I've got a sketch of a sound alike for the theme song. Any preferred ways to link it from this forum / submit it ?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Rubidium wrote:

kamnet wrote:
MIDI files are not pre-recorded, it is a digital form of sheet music that is performed on-demand by a synthesizer, at the request of an individual, and thus is a public performance. In most of the cases with the MIDI files we'll be using, the composer and publisher is going to be the same individual. This is what GPL doesn't touch, and what many composers gets antsy about.
Doesn't GPL touch that? The MIDI files would be the "source", the MIDI synthesizer is the "compiler" and the result of that would be the "application". In this case packaging the sound ("application") means that you need to add the license. Any modifications to it means that those modifications need to be clearly marked. So in fact it might be a quite strong license for MIDI files.

For example if someone uses the music for a movie that movie has to be GPL because it has been incorporated and as such that *if* you get the movie you have to get the sources of the movie which you then can distribute under GPL. This basically makes the music unuseable commercially (due to the licensing), which means that they have to ask the author of the song that can be found in the readme/copyright files for a relicense for their purposes (possibly with payment).


http://www.midi.org/newsviews/usco_pr.shtml


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Gnu.org wrote:
We don't take the position that artistic or entertainment works must be free, but if you want to make one free, we recommend the Free Art License.

Why don't we just use this license?

I'm also wondering, cc licenses are not compatible with GPL, but OTTD is published under GPL (v2?). Won't that create a problem if we want to publish the game with any cc licensed material included in the game?

Also, check out http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html

-lucas- wrote:
I've got a sketch of a sound alike for the theme song. Any preferred ways to link it from this forum / submit it ?

Just go for whatever is easiest, I want to listen! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:47 pm 
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jvlomax wrote:
Just go for whatever is easiest, I want to listen! :D


Ok, does this work?

http://www.4shared.com/get/183965559/bc ... new17.html

Experiment - first few versions sounded weird in certain midi players, i got them now more or less similar sounding on Windows Media Player, Quicktime and my audio sequencing software.

The goal was to be instantly recognizable by old school players, but still be different enough from the original.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:54 pm 
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I just listened to it, and it was really great! I did see that you took some ideas from the old music, however. :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:00 pm 
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MIDI files can be attached here on the forums, I'd recommend you do that. Trying to get that web site to give me the file is proving challenging, it seems to be hanging somewhat...

EDIT: Finally got it. Uploaded it here for those who find file sharing web sites a pain. Nice work, by the way, I like the sound of it. :)


Attachments:
File comment: Title theme

ttdtheme_new17.mid [ 35.98 KiB | Viewed 4928 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:11 pm 
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petert wrote:
I just listened to it, and it was really great! I did see that you took some ideas from the old music, however. :-)


Some? :P

I tried to get as close as possible without copying it ('sound alike') :D
Instruments, even some production tricks, like the doubled bass, the delay on the brass, pitched sax and guitar, the key, etc... it's meant as kind of an hommage :)


Last edited by -lucas- on Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:16 pm 
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orudge wrote:
EDIT: Finally got it. Uploaded it here for those who find file sharing web sites a pain. Nice work, by the way, I like the sound of it. :)

That player you have there with the midi file looks quite useful, I wish it wasn't still on "Opening Media".


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:18 pm 
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petert wrote:
orudge wrote:
EDIT: Finally got it. Uploaded it here for those who find file sharing web sites a pain. Nice work, by the way, I like the sound of it. :)

That player you have there with the midi file looks quite useful, I wish it wasn't still on "Opening Media".


I had the same problem. There's a link directly beneath it, though.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:37 pm 
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It's quite catchy, a LOT like the original as well.

Nice work.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:29 pm 
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Rubidium wrote:
kamnet wrote:
OpenSFX being distributed under CCSP+ 1.0, does that mean that it will NOT be included with a future Debian distro?
Yes-ish. It won't be in main for sure, although there might a chance it will be included in 'non-free', but 'non-free' is not really part of Debian; most packages in there are just for support, e.g. the ATI video card driver.

kamnet wrote:
If that is not the case, then I fail to see why it now matters with offering the same license for the music files.
The whole 'does not show in Debian' issue is why I dislike CCSP+ 1.0, even for OpenSFX. However, if the only source of material is a CCSP+ 1.0 licensed databank of samples then you have to use that license, or not package it and thus not finish OpenSFX. So I decided that a finished OpenSFX that could not be sold is worth more for our users than an OpenSFX which was fully free and people could sell.

As it seems you are going to compose it yourself, or have good contact with the composers, licensing it under a freeer license would be better from a point of usefulness in Debian and its derivatives (and possibly other distributions).


After reading through the recent links posted to the GPL licenses as well as the link which shows MIDI files are being treated the same as phonographic recordings, GPL v2 is probably the best way to go. Now my main concern is... wouldn't it feel a little odd to distribute OpenTTD w/ a base set of graphics and music, but not sounds? ?( :))

The license still seems a little "grey-ish" to me as far as music files, but I don't think most composers I've been in contact with sofar would be opposed. Although I knew a few specifically will because they absolutely do not want any profit derived from their work without compensation - that is, they're happy to have it distributed for free as long as it remains distributed for free, but if anybody is going to profit from it, then they would like compensation for that. However, considering the work that Lucas just posted, then I have a feeling we're in good shape and might not need as much material from outside the community to help fill in.

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Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
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Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:38 pm 
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orudge wrote:
MIDI files can be attached here on the forums, I'd recommend you do that. Trying to get that web site to give me the file is proving challenging, it seems to be hanging somewhat... EDIT: Finally got it. Uploaded it here for those who find file sharing web sites a pain. Nice work, by the way, I like the sound of it. :)


Hrm. I'm getting an error from FireFox/WinXP stating "Cannot Create DirectShow Player". :-/

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Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
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Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:39 pm 
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-lucas- wrote:
I tried to get as close as possible without copying it ('sound alike') :D Instruments, even some production tricks, like the doubled bass, the delay on the brass, pitched sax and guitar, the key, etc... it's meant as kind of an hommage :)


Fantastic work!!! :bow:

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Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
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Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:49 pm 
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:bow: Really good! that good easily be used in the game :D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:30 pm 
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kamnet wrote:
Hrm. I'm getting an error from FireFox/WinXP stating "Cannot Create DirectShow Player". :-/


It'll try to use whichever player may be registered on your system for MIDI files. Might be WMP, might be QuickTime. You can download the file manually (use the little link below) if need be.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:59 am 
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Ammler requested and OpenGFX logo, which I think would fit well with OpenMRP. Here is the code:
Code:
[url=http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=46479][img]http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=122008[/img][/url]


Attachments:
OpenMRP_OGFX.png
OpenMRP_OGFX.png [ 2.77 KiB | Viewed 4852 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:29 am 
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Well, guess what... I've started work on another music improvement patch. ;) Only this time I aim to try to do it as decently as possible so that it actually stands a chance of getting in. You'll be able to track the progress at this git repository.

This branch will in theory support a variety of music formats (MP3, Vorbis and FLAC, as well as raw/PCM audio). I've yet to work out quite how the playlists and so on will work, but that's somewhat of a separate issue at the moment.

Just now I'm working on some basic infrastructure that allows music to be streamed to the OpenTTD mixer. Currently I have a little multithreaded system set up that just streams from a .raw file on disk. I'll post updates, possibly in a separate thread (since it's not really directly related to this project I guess), as and when they occur.

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