Running costs and stuff

[ScouserInExile]

Is it just me, or are the running costs for anything more advanced than the basic diesels prohibitively expensive? I'm on a relatively small map and it's actually working out cheaper to run a doze or so trucks, rather than one train. Am I missing something here or are electric trains really difficult to make a profit with?

I'm up to 2020, so could upgrade to Maglev, but again they're very expensive to run, so what's the point?

Is there any way to make obselete trains available again?

[Yexo]

The running cost or vehicles depends on the newgrf set you are using.

[Roujin]

[...]
Is there any way to make obselete trains available again?

For this, go into the advanced settings from the running game and look for the option "Vehicles never expire". Turn it on. Then, open the console (key left to 1, possibly two times) and enter "resetengines" (without the quotes) and press enter.

[KIDS]

Just so to not open a new thread, I'd like to jump in with a question about road vehicles (I found a similar thread, but it's years old). Are their costs growing faster than the trains or something like that? I find them almost unusable past the second generation of vehicles, with their costs enormous compared to the increase in income.

For example, the starting trains cost about 2500 pounds/year, and in my game have increased (in 2030) to about 30,000 for the newest Cyclops Maglev. But their income has also increased tremendously, netting like 30-100,000 pounds per trip.

On the other hand, road vehicle costs have increased almost twenty times (from 450 to 8500), but their income hasn't increased much. They also aren't able to make many more trips compared to the old vehicles like the new trains are, and they also have poor maximum breakdown percentages. I haven't been able to make a road vehicle turn a profit since year 2000, even buses that go and return with full capacity.

Is there an option to reduce road vehicle costs or something, or a pack that fixes the issue?

[Xander]

The running cost or vehicles depends on the newgrf set you are using.

[KIDS]

Yes, but I am not using any particular set. I haven't touched them since installing the game, those are the default values. But I'll have a look around those GRFs, thanks.

[Xander]

Ah. That'll be inflation then. But all the numbers climb together, both price, running cost and transport fees, so I'd be surprised if your vehicles suddenly started operating at a loss.

[Wasila]

I thought that income inflation rose more slowly than costs inflation?

[Abenhor]

I thought that income inflation rose more slowly than costs inflation?

As wiki says, the cargo payment inflation is slightly below the inflation rate for costs.
The inflation mechanism is performed only during the first 170 years (like in the original TTD).

[Xander]

I thought that income inflation rose more slowly than costs inflation?

As wiki says, the cargo payment inflation is slightly below the inflation rate for costs.
The inflation mechanism is performed only during the first 170 years (like in the original TTD).

All of which emphasies my original points of being surprised your routes would suddenly start operating at a loss. Without a savegame the only thing I can think of is that you have a really bad transport system that can go from profit to loss when the game itself is helping you to make money

[KIDS]

I'll open some routes in my 2040 game and let you know the results/screenies with a save later.

This has been a running issue for me, not just related to any one game. For example, in 1970 or so, I have a big town whose two opposite ends are connected with Hereford leopard buses that always have full cargo both ways and are making about 5000 profit/year, which is excellent. It's an ideal situation.
Come 2000, they've been replaced by Foster buses which have more cargo and speed, and only a bit lower reliability. Their profit has fallen slightly, but that might be just a coincidence.
Fast-forward to 2030, the same route is ran with MKII Superbuses in same conditions, and not a single one of them is operating with a profit. Same applies to almost all routes I've tried. I'll provide some screenies later.

[Xander]

I'll open some routes in my 2040 game and let you know the results/screenies with a save later.

This has been a running issue for me, not just related to any one game. For example, in 1970 or so, I have a big town whose two opposite ends are connected with Hereford leopard buses that always have full cargo both ways and are making about 5000 profit/year, which is excellent. It's an ideal situation.
Come 2000, they've been replaced by Foster buses which have more cargo and speed, and only a bit lower reliability. Their profit has fallen slightly, but that might be just a coincidence.
Fast-forward to 2030, the same route is ran with MKII Superbuses in same conditions, and not a single one of them is operating with a profit. Same applies to almost all routes I've tried. I'll provide some screenies later.

Please do. This sounds utterly bizarre. Do you have breakdowns on or something like that?

[as]

I thought that income inflation rose more slowly than costs inflation?

As wiki says, the cargo payment inflation is slightly below the inflation rate for costs.
The inflation mechanism is performed only during the first 170 years (like in the original TTD).

All of which emphasies my original points of being surprised your routes would suddenly start operating at a loss. Without a savegame the only thing I can think of is that you have a really bad transport system that can go from profit to loss when the game itself is helping you to make money

Read it again and think about it: the cargo payment prices rise slower than running costs.

[Xander]

Read it again and think about it: the cargo payment prices rise slower than running costs.

Ah. I read that the wrong way round. Still, though, routes in OTTD running at a loss? I'm curious what's gone so horribly wrong there. I've had buses doing similar things that late in the game without problems from running costs.

[KIDS]

I do have breakdowns on --- should I not have them? I'm not yet in the age where the vehicles start disappearing and maximum reliability falling forever, so these are normal conditions.

Anyways - here are some of the files. Note that while I do have some profitable vehicles (a special oil and water route and some buses in a few towns), they are in the minority and the buses' profits have been falling for years now. When I mention falling profits, I don't mean that large road that has become clogged with hundreds of AI vehicles and is now a lost cause. That is expected.

Aside from me being paranoid or something, it seems to me that inflation is fine. However, the base running cost for new generation road vehicles is disproportionately high compared to the first ones, and inflation's exponential growth worsens it. Also, while all futuristic trains have 99% reliability, the last road vehicles are usually between 70-80%, which further reduces their efficiency.
My theory is that the valuable running cost is ticking while they still take the same time to enter/load/exit a station, but their speed is only slightly better than the original road vehicles, not enough to make ten times more routes in one years to compensate for the running costs.

What do you think?

[Xander]

You're spot on with your ideas.

1) Breakdowns become a real problem with high running costs - 5 days sat around doing nothing is always going to hurt you.
2) Your stations look clogged, resulting in more down time. Try swapping them for Roro street side stops.
3) Your routes are very small. You make more money the further and faster they go. Try making them go intercity rather than just interurban.

[Wasila]

Use drive-thru stations. Those are very good for capacity and it takes up even less space than the normal stops (which the buses have to negotiated their way into). Putting two next to each other on a block is also very good, as the vehicles go to the stop furthest away, allowing the next vehicle to load behind.

[KIDS]

So the new vehicle running costs and speeds have just de-optimized them for small distances. The drive-thru stops are a great idea though, I've never used those before. My new design (even if it hasn't helped me get vehicles into profit, but still) is in the screenshot.

Thanks everyone for the help!

[Bob Smith]

Inflation is the kicker. In order to maintain profitability, I always have to extend my bus routes to be longer and longer, and even then the profit made over the lifetime of the vehicle is probably not enough to cover replacement. The solution I found was just to change inflation so that income and running costs go up together.