ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[wallyweb]

I think I heard the TTDPatch guys were working on rivers. Maybe that could be the solution to high-altitude food-industries. Another idea is to allow the food-producing industries to be placed anywhere if they are supplied with water.

Unfortunately I can't speak for OTTD, but under TTDPatch, the rivers do indeed count as water and George's ECS industries that require placement within a certain distance of water do as well with rivers (and canals) as they do with the sea.

[michael blunck]

[...] I can't test that there are hotels.
We need some sort of flags. We have discussed it with Csaboka before, but me doubts that flags would be coded soon.

Yeah, what we need is the building class property without being restricted to the current .grf´s scope. O/c, then we´d need to have global class types with the usual discussion about it, like we had for cargoes.

regards
Michael

[Roujin]

Basic vector for Arctic is aborted and should be removed

So does that mean that your new industries are only going to become available on the Temperate and Tropic climates? I for one would like to continue playing in the Arctic climate.
[...]

No. All the vectors are usable in every climate (not speaking about toyland, that's possibly an exception) even if they are not called "for tropic" or "for arctic". Just use the "Basic vector", even if you're playing in arctic climate.

[...](a NewGRF paramater) that lets you vary the rate of industry-closure.

That is a nice idea, in my opinion. I'd like to have that aswell.

[George]

Basic vector for Arctic is aborted and should be removed

So does that mean that your new industries are only going to become available on the Temperate and Tropic climates? I for one would like to continue playing in the Arctic climate.

You can Apply any vectors combination even in toyland. "for arctic" is just a name. A bad one, because it leads to misunderstandings. It would be better to have names like "Water mod", "Mod # 2" and so on.

Incidentally, if I play with recent-ish Newindustries GRF files, there is no more bank in the Arctic climate (see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=647806#p647806 for details including which GRF versions I'm using).

Even in new random games?

And finally, can I add my voice to all those who keep saying "Please could you do something about the industry closure?"

Yes, I can. But What? 15 years protection? Divide closure chance by 10? Protection period depending on difficulty settings (5-10-20)?

[George]

[...] I can't test that there are hotels.
We need some sort of flags. We have discussed it with Csaboka before, but me doubts that flags would be coded soon.

Yeah, what we need is the building class property without being restricted to the current .grf´s scope. O/c, then we´d need to have global class types with the usual discussion about it, like we had for cargoes.

Idea of flags is better, because it is not limited to houses

[imperator]

sorry stupid question for me noob with ECS: how do you transport the stuff in openttd? the standard vehicles and trains cant transport the new cargos.

[wallyweb]

sorry stupid question for me noob with ECS: how do you transport the stuff in openttd? the standard vehicles and trains cant transport the new cargos.

For the standard road vehicles there is a grf file here. But why not use one of the road vehicle sets like George's LV4 or the Generic Road Vehicle Set? Also, I do not know of a grf that will adapt the default trains, but again, why not use one of train sets? If you want a place to look for them click on this GRFCrawler banner:



George, you do not have information in the wiki about the shipyard yet. I know it must be built in a suburb and near water. What else do I need to make a site suitable?

[michael blunck]

Yeah, what we need is the building class property without being restricted to the current .grf´s scope. O/c, then we´d need to have global class types with the usual discussion about it, like we had for cargoes.

Idea of flags is better, because it is not limited to houses

Mmh?

regards
Michael

[Korenn]

And finally, can I add my voice to all those who keep saying "Please could you do something about the industry closure?"

Yes, I can. But What? 15 years protection? Divide closure chance by 10? Protection period depending on difficulty settings (5-10-20)?

How about 'no closure' as an option? When you just start out playing with the vectors, there's quite an amount of confusion as to what should be transported where, and what is profitable at start. It's nice if there's the option of playing in an 'easy' difficulty so to speak, to learn your way around.

[Rainer]

Yes, I can. But What? 15 years protection? Divide closure chance by 10? Protection period depending on difficulty settings (5-10-20)?

Hi, I vote for the second.

I'm rather satisfied with the closing of secondary industries because there are normally too much on a (OTTD 512x512) map from the start.
But I have the impression unserviced primary industries are closing too fast and too often. Does this result from the lack of machines?
It is rather impossible to complete a production chain for cars within 5 years and then an enormous network is needed to distribute them.

cu
Rainer

[imperator]

sorry stupid question for me noob with ECS: how do you transport the stuff in openttd? the standard vehicles and trains cant transport the new cargos.

For the standard road vehicles there is a grf file here. But why not use one of the road vehicle sets like George's LV4 or the Generic Road Vehicle Set? Also, I do not know of a grf that will adapt the default trains, but again, why not use one of train sets? If you want a place to look for them click on this GRFCrawler banner:



George, you do not have information in the wiki about the shipyard yet. I know it must be built in a suburb and near water. What else do I need to make a site suitable?

what would be the most used/practical trainset for ecs?

[Gomba]

what would be the most used/practical trainset for ecs?

Michael's DB set XL with ECS extension is the best choice imho. you can download it here: http://www.ttdpatch.de

[Gomba]

How about 'no closure' as an option? When you just start out playing with the vectors, there's quite an amount of confusion as to what should be transported where, and what is profitable at start. It's nice if there's the option of playing in an 'easy' difficulty so to speak, to learn your way around.

+1 vote on this!

[wallyweb]

what would be the most used/practical trainset for ecs?

Just about all of them are good. My personal preferences are The Serbian and the Canadian Sets, although the Canadian Set will be better when v3 is released. The US Set may be a bit problematic, but its worth a try too.

And finally, can I add my voice to all those who keep saying "Please could you do something about the industry closure?"

Yes, I can. But What? 15 years protection? Divide closure chance by 10? Protection period depending on difficulty settings (5-10-20)?

How about 'no closure' as an option? When you just start out playing with the vectors, there's quite an amount of confusion as to what should be transported where, and what is profitable at start. It's nice if there's the option of playing in an 'easy' difficulty so to speak, to learn your way around.

If you have TTDPatch look for this setting in your ttdpatch.cfg:

Code: Select all

// `stableindustry' (-Xi) prevents industries from closing down if Economy is set to Steady in Difficulty settings.
stableindustry on

I don't know if there is something similar in OTTD.

[Korenn]

there isn't in ottd as far as I know.

[George]

Idea of flags is better, because it is not limited to houses

Mmh?

The Idea is to allow GRF file to give information for the other GRF file about its' possibilities.

For example, ECS chemical vector requires petrol stations, petrol tankers (wagons), petrol trucks, petrol carrying ships. If any of them is missing, it can provide some basic object to fix it (add a new house, change the default oil truck, oil wagon, oil ship). Only for missing objects, not for all of the. How can it do it? Especially in case of new sets in the future? It can't check GRFIDs, because new ones are unknown.
Here came the idea of flags. Every GRF can (in documentation) specify a list of flags, it is looking for, and if they are defined, not to add the fix. All the other sets can provide the required objects and information for the set (set a flag).

How could it work?
There are two commands for the GRF:
- define a flag (new global string valuable, like cargo labels)
- check the flag defined (like cargo label defined)

For example, ECS chemical vector may require flag PETROLSTATIONS. If it is defined, no new house "petrol station" is created. If not, it creates a new house. TTRS / NACS / Alpine set may define the flag PETROLSTATIONS to prevent ECS chemical vector from creating it's own petrol stations. For ECS chemical vector it does not matter what GRF has provided the flag. All, it needs is the flag being defined. The same way it may require PETROLTRUCK or ANYCARGOTRUCK or ANYLIQUIDCARGOTRUCK flags being defined. These flags (all or any) can be defined by LV or GVS or German RV set, so the ECS chemical vector does not do any attempt to provide a new truck for petrol.

This mechanism is independent from object type (it can be applied for anything - houses, vehicles, industries, landscape ...) and allow collaboration with future sets.

[electricmonk]

"for arctic" is just a name. A bad one, because it leads to misunderstandings.

OK. I'll use the regular Basic vector the next time I start a new game in the Arctic climate.

Incidentally, if I play with recent-ish Newindustries GRF files, there is no more bank in the Arctic climate (see viewtopic.php?p=647806#p647806 for details including which GRF versions I'm using).

Even in new random games?

This happens with new scenarios created in the scenario editor. In fact, if I bring up the "Fund new industry" window, there is no bank in the list of industries. In http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=647806#p647806 I've posted a screenshot that shows which versions of the GRF files I'm using. In existing scenarioes, the bank was turned into something that resembles a coalmine. I was using the "Basic vector for arctic". I have not yet tried using the regular basic vector in the arctic climate.

And finally, can I add my voice to all those who keep saying "Please could you do something about the industry closure?"

Yes, I can. But What? 15 years protection? Divide closure chance by 10? Protection period depending on difficulty settings (5-10-20)?

Good question. Perhaps these difficulty settings could be paramaters passed to the GRF files. As well as "minimum number of years industry remains alive", "probability of closure" could also be specified. I'm sure that once people have learned to get a feel for your new industry sets, they will start to play it the way you intended, but if you're just used to the regular TTDLX way of handling industries, the learning curve is steep (but short) because there is a lot of new things to get used to, so I think configurable dificulty is the way to go.

Incidentally, I have proposed an idea about advance warnings for industry closure. Perhaps if this was implemented, industry closure wouldn't be such a pain.

[George]

Incidentally, if I play with recent-ish Newindustries GRF files, there is no more bank in the Arctic climate (see viewtopic.php?p=647806#p647806 for details including which GRF versions I'm using).

Even in new random games?

This happens with new scenarios created in the scenario editor. In fact, if I bring up the "Fund new industry" window, there is no bank in the list of industries. In http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=647806#p647806 I've posted a screenshot that shows which versions of the GRF files I'm using. In existing scenarioes, the bank was turned into something that resembles a coalmine. I was using the "Basic vector for arctic". I have not yet tried using the regular basic vector in the arctic climate.

Does it happen in new random game? If yes - it is a bug in GRF. If in saves and scenarious - than there is cht: purgeindustries in TTDP, I do not know what to do with OTTD
2:Belugas?

And finally, can I add my voice to all those who keep saying "Please could you do something about the industry closure?"

Yes, I can. But What? 15 years protection? Divide closure chance by 10? Protection period depending on difficulty settings (5-10-20)?

Good question. Perhaps these difficulty settings could be paramaters passed to the GRF files. As well as "minimum number of years industry remains alive", "probability of closure" could also be specified. I'm sure that once people have learned to get a feel for your new industry sets, they will start to play it the way you intended, but if you're just used to the regular TTDLX way of handling industries, the learning curve is steep (but short) because there is a lot of new things to get used to, so I think configurable dificulty is the way to go.
Incidentally, I have proposed an idea about advance warnings for industry closure. Perhaps if this was implemented, industry closure wouldn't be such a pain.

I like the idea! I'll try to make something like this. Would advance period of 12 months be Ok?

[George]

How much energy (KW/h) would power station provide (produce) from 1 ton of coal and how much from 1000 litres of oil?
I'm looking for a formula (I suppose it should depend on the cur year?)

[belugas]

Does it happen in new random game? If yes - it is a bug in GRF. If in saves and scenarious - than there is cht: purgeindustries in TTDP, I do not know what to do with OTTD2:Belugas?

If you are referring to the purge industries cheat, i don't think we have one in OTTD.
If you are referring to the bank stuff, IIRC, it has been corrected in nightlies. But, AFAIR, electricmonk only uses Beta2, thus not the fixed version.