NewRoutes - new graphic system for rail and roads RFC

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 10 Jul 2006 08:08

Hello

As we branched to 2.6 and 2.5 is purely for fixing bugs, I already start to get to know what you (means the grf authors) want to do newgrf wise with roads, rails, bridges and tunnels.

Please don't spam this topic with feature suggestions like say diagonal bridges, this topic is for people who create GRFs and want to discuss with the Devs, that would be Lakie, maybe Steven and myself.

To get some ideas what should happen please visit
http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... oNewRoutes
before you post.

OTTD Devs (again not purely players) are invited to join the discussion (prefered ones who know newgrf) if discussions stays well grounded and it the system stays possible to do in TTDPatch.

Some keypoints of the plan:
- Seperate ground from rails and roads.
- Seperate road texture from bridges.
- Add proper newgrf support for new bridges.
- Add proper newgrf support for tunnel entrances, again seperateing road rails from the tunnel entrance...
- Allow 8 rail types, 4 predefined ones, 4 open for grfs (narrow gauge, highspeed tracks ...)
- Allow different roads in different times
- Show rail / road ageing. (Unused rails should get rusty)
- Trying to get variations.

Ok, Request for Comments, how the newgrf system would be the best from the Devs and Author perspective...

BobDendry · Post by **BobDendry** » 10 Jul 2006 09:15

Hello eis_os,
I'm not sure if this is the correct thing to be suggesting, but one thing I've always been interested in would be a drop-down list for different varieties of the same rail-type. For example:
Rail>
White Gravel
Black Gravel
Blue Gravel
Technicolour Gravel
Black Rails
Blue Rails
Red Rails
and so on and so forth. Do you know if this would be possible?

Purno · Post by **Purno** » 10 Jul 2006 09:23

Just got some questions about planned features;

Bridges; How much possibilities do would new bridge grfs have, for example qua 'consist' (e.g. which bridge part has which graphic (would it be able to be funnly customized), would something like livery refit work, would company colors work, would there be unlimited amout of bridges possible, would bridges have an year of introduction and a year they aren't available anymore, would bridges be available only for certain rail/road types, would you be able to build bridge parts over bridges like with stations, would bridges be climate-specific, would a custom support-graphics per height be available (or would the same sprite be used for every level of height, like now), etc.

Railtypes; Would it be possible to let certain types be connectable to each other? Would tracktypes have max speed or something? Would tracktypes have it's own station graphics (that'd support something of above-level metro systems in some bigger cities). What about below ground metro system (being a certain level under ground, not lomo style)?

EDIT: What about other types of catenary, or things like seperate 3rd rail sprites?

EDIT 2: And would for example road be able to show different sprites depending on the game-year?

Hyronymus · Post by **Hyronymus** » 10 Jul 2006 09:53

Can we all please read what eis_os wrote:

eis_os wrote:Please don't spam this topic with feature suggestions like say diagonal bridges, this topic is for people who create GRFs and want to discuss with the Devs, that would be Lakie, maybe Steven and myself.

To get some ideas what should happen please visit
http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... oNewRoutes
before you post.

That actually means reading that Wiki link.

Aegir · Post by **Aegir** » 10 Jul 2006 10:11

Can't say I didn't see that happening..

I propose an TTDPatch development forum section for this kind of stuff, limit it to the TTDPatch devs/grf coders. Well, not that TT-Forums has enough sub-forums already...

BobDendry · Post by **BobDendry** » 10 Jul 2006 10:15

And how to differentiate between a normal person and a GRF Coder? That would have to be a fairly complicated thing to do. I mean anyone can be a GRF Coder but can they be a GRF Coder(yes, I know I just stated the same thing twice, It was meant as one of those thing that needs emphasis, which can't be given online, my apologies

)

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 10 Jul 2006 14:52

Rails: as in the wiki and in my first text, 8 types, 4 default ones 4 open for grf ones. Selectable as you do currently. Compatible masks are described at the wiki scratchpad aswell.

Purno: Did you consider reading the wiki? The caternary part is mentioned there. Aswell the compatible mask between track types...

The bridge part isn't defined. Only that bridges will access textures from road type...

Underground systems, no comment, read the part with OTTD Devs again...

Purno · Post by **Purno** » 10 Jul 2006 14:56

eis_os wrote:Purno: Did you consider reading the wiki? The caternary part is mentioned there. Aswell the compatible mask between track types...

FYI, I read the wiki before posting. I'm not as stupid as I might look like. But with my limited NFO knowledge some questions arrise.

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 10 Jul 2006 14:59

wiki wrote:(Idea: The caternary could be added into the sprite table system, so even two caternary systems could be done, very hard)

If it's not possible to discuss it here, we have to switch to IRC and Mail....

(and to michael posts below, I try to be open as possible)

michael blunck · Post by **michael blunck** » 10 Jul 2006 15:01

> I propose an TTDPatch development forum section [...]

There´s already a TTDPatch development mailing list ...

regards
Michael

Hyronymus · Post by **Hyronymus** » 10 Jul 2006 21:17

I suggested a TTDPatch Dev section to Owen a while ago, OTTD has one, TE has one even so why not TTDPatch. Especially with these kind of subjects I think TTDPatch deserves such section.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 10 Jul 2006 22:06

Ok, I'll try to add my two cents. There were some things we were considering for the FRSet and I'd like to have some feedback whether they're feasible or not.

1. I seem to understand that the first 4 rail types are somewhat written in stone. Thsi only leaves us 4 slots for stuff. Now, what we were planning to put in our GRF was the following:
- unelectrified standard gauge (SG) track
- catenary-powered SG track
- 3rd rail powered SG track
- high speed SG track (other track types should have a speed limit of 240 kmh);
- unelectrified narrow gauge (NG) track
- catenary-powered NG track
- 3rd rail powered NG track.
So, this means 5 custom track types.
Now, will this be possible? Ideally, since we will not need monorail or maglev, the .GRF could overwrite one of the two. Otherwise, we'd have two useless track types, and couldn't include one of the planned types, which would cripple the game quite a bit.
1.1. Connected to this: how about speed limits for rail types?

2. I saw on the Wiki the "compatible mask for rails" features, and I like it. Until now, if I get it right, it allows steamers and diesels to run on electrified (catenary) tracks. It would be cool if it were extended to 3rd rail track types (allowing diesels and steamers to run on them as well).

3. Some early French electric engines had both 3rd rail shoes and pantos, meaning they could run on either catenary-powered or 3rd rail-powered tracks indifferently. Could this be done with NewRoutes?
Ideally, these engines should be bought in both catenary-powered and 3rd rail-powered depots, and should be able to run on either track type. The best thing would be to see them going with pantos up when running below catenary, and pantos down when running on 3rd rail tracks (I'd draw both types of sprites).
Would this be possible?

4. Making unused tracks age and rust, and possibly letting grass grow on them, would be an awesome eye candy that we'd be glad to use.

Thanks in advance for your replies!

PS. We are the champions!!! (not the French... I'm from Milan)

(<-- 11 players + coach)

Post by **Dave** » 10 Jul 2006 23:32

Snail wrote:3. Some early French electric engines had both 3rd rail shoes and pantos, meaning they could run on either catenary-powered or 3rd rail-powered tracks indifferently. Could this be done with NewRoutes?
Ideally, these engines should be bought in both catenary-powered and 3rd rail-powered depots, and should be able to run on either track type. The best thing would be to see them going with pantos up when running below catenary, and pantos down when running on 3rd rail tracks (I'd draw both types of sprites).
Would this be possible?

4. Making unused tracks age and rust, and possibly letting grass grow on them, would be an awesome eye candy that we'd be glad to use.

In reference to 2 and 3 - this also applies to several BR locomotives, and I'd also really appreciate the opportunity of running other locos on 3rd Rail track.

In reference to 4 - again another significant part of British Rail culture.

These two would be brilliant features!

Great ideas Snail!

stevenh · Post by **stevenh** » 11 Jul 2006 01:21

Oskar, count me in.
I'm still focused on Articulated RVs, but this is all tied in.

Sounds like Trams will get an entire rewrite thanks to this code, which I'm happy to help with!

I like it that you mentioned Bus/Truck Stops/Stations in the Wiki. They should definately get included and I'd love to focus on them after aRVs are a little more solid. Would be neat to see some RV Terminuses in action.

So happy to see the ball rolling on this...

edit: Signals on bridges? On that note, can each bridge tile have a connection-map? ie. bridge junctions.

eis_os · Post by **eis_os** » 11 Jul 2006 07:45

Signals on bridges, what? I guess you have something different thennewroutes in mind. Where did you get that idea from.

8 types, 4 predefined ones, (this will make the whole unimaglev concept obsolute, and the messes with changeing sprites around in code)

Why 8 types? TTD can store only 8. Why 4 predefined ones? So old savegames can be converted without a headache in my brain...

michael blunck · Post by **michael blunck** » 11 Jul 2006 08:01

[custom track types]

> TTD can store only 8

IMO, for every reasonable vehicle´s set 8 different types of tracks should be sufficient.

I think the track list above is already somewhat "special" but o/c could be still extended. E.g., Snail forgot the different track types for rack-railways (SG rack, SG rack electrified, NG rack, NG rack electrified).

And don´t forget broad gauge and BG electrified ...

[edit:]

Only to show that there´s no use in trying to be too detailed, here´s a list of those many incompatible combinations between voltage and rack type systems in Switzerland:

name - gauge - voltage - rack type

ST: 1435mm n/a n/a
SBB, BLS, BN, BT, EBT, GBS, MO, MThB, OeBB, PBr, RVT, SEZ, SMB, SOB, STB, SZU, VHB, WM: 1435mm (SG) ~15kV 16.7Hz n/a
RHB: 1435mm (SG) ~15kV 16.7Hz Riggenbach
RB: 1435mm =1500V Riggenbach
OC: 1435mm =700V n/a
LO: 1435mm (SG) =650V Strub

RhW: 1200mm =600V Riggenbach

BAM, YSteC: 1000mm ~15kV 16.7Hz n/a
Brünigbahn, LSE: 1000mm ~15kV 16.7Hz Riggenbach
RhB: 100mm ~11kV 16.7Hz n/a
BVZ, FO: 1000mm ~11kV 16.7Hz Abt
NStCM: 1000mm =2200V n/a
AB, BOB: 1000mm =1500V Riggenbach/Strub
CJ, CMN, LEB: 1000mm =1500V n/a
ASD: 1000mm =1350V n/a
AL: 1000mm =1300V Abt
BD, BTI, FART, FB, FW, MIB, RBS, RVO, SNB: 1000mm =1200V n/a
FLP, TB: 1000mm =1000V n/a
MOB: 1000mm =900V n/a
CEV: 1000mm =900V Strub
AOMC: 1000mm =850V Strub
MC: 1000mm =800V Strub
GFM: 1000mm =800V n/a
WSB: 1000mm =750V n/a
BVB: 1000mm =700V Abt
MG: 1000mm =650V Abt
LO: 1000mm =650V Strub
Db: 1000mm =600V von Roll
BLT: 1000mm =600V n/a
BLM: 1000mm =525V n/a
GGB: 1000mm D 725V 50Hz Abt
JB: 1000mm D 1125V 50Hz Strub

PB: 800mm =1550V Locher
SPB, WAB: 800mm =1500V Riggenbach
MTGN: 800mm =850V Abt
BRB: 800mm n/a Abt

WB: 750mm =1500V n/a

regards
Michael

broodje · Post by **broodje** » 11 Jul 2006 10:01

would a train 'know' on wich type of track it is driving? A dual voltage loco (3th and OHLE) has a diference in the max power available when running on 600 volts or 25.000 (Example from the UK) A good example of this would be the eurostar, wich can't drive at full speed in england becouse it is powered via 3th rail overthere. The same would count for the max allowed speed (if coded) An ICE can drive on normal tracks but it would not be allowed to drive the max speed.

lifeblood · Post by **lifeblood** » 11 Jul 2006 11:22

For roads, what's the possibility of having different surfaces? Dirt roads, for instance, that are quite cheap to build, but have a low speed rating of, say, 50 km/h. Or concrete highways that can support speeds in excess of 100 km/h.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 11 Jul 2006 12:27

michael blunck wrote:[custom track types]

> TTD can store only 8

IMO, for every reasonable vehicle´s set 8 different types of tracks should be sufficient.

Yes, I agree. But this configuration reduces the custom types to "only" 4.
I can see the point of the compatibility with the old save games. But if it stays like that, we'll have to drop one of our custom rail types. Not sure which one, though. Also, monorail and maglev would be two wasted slots.

michael blunck wrote: I think the track list above is already somewhat "special" but o/c could be still extended. E.g., Snail forgot the different track types for rack-railways (SG rack, SG rack electrified, NG rack, NG rack electrified).

And don´t forget broad gauge and BG electrified ...

And how about NG rack 3rd rail?

Re. max speeds on some tracks, what would you say?

Post by **WWTBAM** » 11 Jul 2006 12:37

Snail wrote:
michael blunck wrote: [custom track types]
I think the track list above is already somewhat "special" but o/c could be still extended. E.g., Snail forgot the different track types for rack-railways (SG rack, SG rack electrified, NG rack, NG rack electrified).

And don´t forget broad gauge and BG electrified ..
And how about NG rack 3rd rail?

Re. max speeds on some tracks, what would you say?

couldnt that be newgrf defined.

Transport Tycoon Forums

NewRoutes - new graphic system for rail and roads RFC

NewRoutes - new graphic system for rail and roads RFC

Who is online