Transport Empire is Dead?
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- The Master
- Engineer
- Posts: 80
- Joined: 02 Apr 2005 20:50
- Location: Italy
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Transport Empire is Dead?
Transport Empire is dead?
Or only forum its.
Or only forum its.
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I play OpenTTD in italian under Debian GNU/Linux
I play OpenTTD in italian under Debian GNU/Linux
I think you can pretty safely say it never kicked off =/
There were too much discussions about petty things, IMO.
There were too much discussions about petty things, IMO.
GoneWacko. Making [url=irc://irc.oftc.net/tycoon]#tycoon[/url] sexy and exciting since 1784.
You need to take action rather than discussing every minor point in detail. However, every time I mentioned this in the last 2 years I got shot down, but nevermind.
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I guess that won't change anytime soon, TBH.
Contributor to the The 2cc Set and Dutch Trainset. Inventor of the Metro concept. Retired Graphics Artist.
Download TT | Latest TTDPatch | OpenTTD | OpenTTDCoop | BaNaNaS: OpenTTD content system | 2048² OTTD scenario of the Netherlands
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All my graphics are licensed under GPL. "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."
Download TT | Latest TTDPatch | OpenTTD | OpenTTDCoop | BaNaNaS: OpenTTD content system | 2048² OTTD scenario of the Netherlands
GRF Codec | GRF Crawler | GRF Maker | Usefull graphics & tools sites | NML Documentation Wiki | NFO Documentation Wiki
All my graphics are licensed under GPL. "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."
I blame myself. Everything was fine before I went to Uni and we lost half of our leadership. Right now I have exams and procrastination to take care of, but I do have a week sitting in my room at Uni with absolutely no work to do. Who knows, maybe I can sort something out here.
We still need that jobless programmer though.
We still need that jobless programmer though.
- orudge
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Why, that sound strangely like me. Procrastination, in particular. And exams. My first one is in just over an hour. Naturally, therefore, I am on the forums. Yes.Steve wrote:I blame myself. Everything was fine before I went to Uni and we lost half of our leadership. Right now I have exams and procrastination to take care of, but I do have a week sitting in my room at Uni with absolutely no work to do. Who knows, maybe I can sort something out here.
Anyway, I'm afraid I'm not a jobless programmer right now, as just mentioned, so I can't really help out. Good luck, though.
I don't think it's fair to blame yourself either, Steve. TE isn't run by you only and as TE is a community process which is being run in spare time it's not that strange that it stalled again. And your study should always go above your hobby. What I feel sorry about is that despite our efforts to get a proper communication between people we still suffer from miscommunication.
Charlieg: the problem isn't with our meticulous description of everything but the problem is the mentioned ill communication and the fact that it's a spare time job. Without a meticulous description people would still have no time as it's life that dictates the time one has and not the details of a description.
Charlieg: the problem isn't with our meticulous description of everything but the problem is the mentioned ill communication and the fact that it's a spare time job. Without a meticulous description people would still have no time as it's life that dictates the time one has and not the details of a description.
That's just not true.Hyronymus wrote:Charlieg: the problem isn't with our meticulous description of everything but the problem is the mentioned ill communication and the fact that it's a spare time job. Without a meticulous description people would still have no time as it's life that dictates the time one has and not the details of a description.
The problem has always been the idealistic approach to designing the game. It was utterly unrealistic to totally spec the game before starting it. You needed to do a step-by-step process so that there was progress whilst you developed the game spec. All successful open source games (or open source apps in general) start with a basic premise, a few fundamental concepts, and build from there.* There are no playable open source games that originated from an exhaustive design document. OpenTTD, Wesnoth, Freeciv, etc etc, all had meagre origins.
You said it yourself; this is/was a spare time project. How can you do a full spec and code and coordinate in spare time? You can't. You need to be pragmatic and keep things realistic, keeping the short term goals low enough to reach. The problem with the entire TE process was there was never any short term goals that gave the project a tangible feel. (A design document is not a tangible game entity.)
A great example of an approach that could have worked for TE is FreeOrion, where the spec is written for each successive release whilst the current one is being coded. i.e. they spec 0.2 whilst coding 0.1 etc. This means that they've hit 0.3 with a playable game whilst still living the 'dream' of their ultimate MOO-esque game.
* I do not enjoy being able to say "I told you so", but I told you guys this years ago and had posts deleted or rudely replied to. I was only concerned that this exact scenario would happen. Having being around open source stuff for years, I could see the writing on the wall once the decision to completely spec the game before implementing it was taken.
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Let's say the detailedness is one of the things that kept this project from taking off then, but it's not, by far, the only factor. We lost a code(r), managing a project like this is hard (even with plenty of time) and I agree we discussed about things too long. That was always my view on it and I believe the approach Steve and I choose to set clear deadlines was (essentially) a good approach.
It could be I replied less friendly to your suggestions too, charlieg. That generally stems from my bad relationship with negative feedback that doesn't show me clear enough how to do things better*. Whether you were clear enough is always discussable, the problem could be completely on the understanding-side . Being critical is one, being constructive is more.
*there's a Dutch saying: the best sailors stand ashore, in English it seems to be "bachelors wives and maiden's children are well trained".
It could be I replied less friendly to your suggestions too, charlieg. That generally stems from my bad relationship with negative feedback that doesn't show me clear enough how to do things better*. Whether you were clear enough is always discussable, the problem could be completely on the understanding-side . Being critical is one, being constructive is more.
*there's a Dutch saying: the best sailors stand ashore, in English it seems to be "bachelors wives and maiden's children are well trained".
Please don't compare a copy project like OTTD * with Transport Empire, that isn't fair for the Transport Empire Team. Ludde actually had a working commercial game as base and used 100% the game logic with all it design goods and the flaws aswell!
* I don't want any discussion about OTTD, but compareing should be done right.
I don't wanna let TE die, if someone has a somehow compatible license with my ideas (that means maybe dual license) you can count me in for logic stuff.
* I don't want any discussion about OTTD, but compareing should be done right.
I don't wanna let TE die, if someone has a somehow compatible license with my ideas (that means maybe dual license) you can count me in for logic stuff.
TTDPatch dev in retirement ... Search a grf, try Grf Crawler 0.9 - now with even faster details view and new features...
Comparison to OTTD is a bit unfair. Comparison to games like FreeOrion, Boson, Scourge, Glest, and other open source games that implement their own vision is not.
Hyronymous: I agree your deadlines idea was good and kept momentum up for longer than it otherwise would have, but the problem was still that the deadlines were all on (from a game player's view) abstract things like the design document. I don't agree that you lost a coder. There were lots of offers for coding but never any real coding tasks. How can you lose coders when you never had a real codebase at any point during the project.
Ok, I've said enough. Post-mortem bitching is not fun.
Hyronymous: I agree your deadlines idea was good and kept momentum up for longer than it otherwise would have, but the problem was still that the deadlines were all on (from a game player's view) abstract things like the design document. I don't agree that you lost a coder. There were lots of offers for coding but never any real coding tasks. How can you lose coders when you never had a real codebase at any point during the project.
Ok, I've said enough. Post-mortem bitching is not fun.
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Well A LOT, you know what I do and did for TTDPatch. About the license, a commercial compatible one, means that parts can be licensed as maybe LGPL with the allow to statical link (see fltk.org). Generally a license where I am able to reuse gamelogic stuff. And I am allowed to used changed code pieces aswell without violation of licensese.Hyronymus wrote:What are your ideas and what is the license you prefer, Oskar?
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