New trams sets and RV IDs for trams

[George]

Due to the new TTDPatch feature "trams" different artist started to make their tram sets. Because there is no fixed IDs for trams, they use any ID they want, that makes conflicts with existing RV sets and other trams sets.
To prevent this situation, I'd like to suggest the fixed interval of IDs for trams. I suggest IDs 38h-47h (16 IDs). That will allow about one new tram every 7 years from 1920 to 2020. I also suggest the same fro trucks - IDs 48h-57h (16 IDs). I hope all the GRFs creators will support the idea for better compatibility of the sets.
Thank you.

[Hyronymus]

16 might be a bit meager, George. I think you hope this is acceptible because otherwise you would have up a lot of work, right ? Perhaps time to check what trams the Dutch set could use.

[Bastiaan]

Well, if we only add the most known types...

Amsterdam historic 2-axle
Amsterdam historic 3-axle
Amsterdam 1G-7G "Bolneuzen"
Amsterdam 8G "Luchtwagens"
Amsterdam 9G-10G "Blokkendozen"
Amsterdam 11G (double ended)
Amsterdam 12G (single ended)
Amsterdam Combino
Den Haag historic 2-axle
Den Haag historic 4-axle
Den Haag PCC
Den Haag 3000-3100 series
Rotterdam 500 series
Rotterdam "Allan" cars
Rotterdam 600-1600 series
Rotterdam 700-800 series
Rotterdam 2000 series "Citadis"
Utrecht sneltram
And several old trams and steam trains I forgot.

That's far above 16

Bastiaan

[George]

16 might be a bit meager, George.

Not if you'd use them careful

I think you hope this is acceptible because otherwise you would have up a lot of work, right ?

No. I can relocate IDs in 20 minutes. But all the players, who use LV set, would have to replace all their RVs. It make take hours. Think about them.

Perhaps time to check what trams the Dutch set could use.

we've made a small search for xUSSR set trams. we wanted about 20, but I think with some care we'd fit in 16.

Well, if we only add the most known types...

If you'll do it with care...

Amsterdam historic 2-axle
Amsterdam historic 3-axle

1 ID + refit

Amsterdam 1G-7G "Bolneuzen"
Amsterdam 8G "Luchtwagens"
Amsterdam 9G-10G "Blokkendozen"

Amsterdam 11G (double ended)
Amsterdam 12G (single ended)

1 ID + refit

Amsterdam Combino

Den Haag historic 2-axle
Den Haag historic 4-axle

1 ID + refit

Den Haag PCC
Den Haag 3000-3100 series
Rotterdam 500 series
Rotterdam "Allan" cars
Rotterdam 600-1600 series
Rotterdam 700-800 series
Rotterdam 2000 series "Citadis"
Utrecht sneltram
And several old trams and steam trains I forgot.
That's far above 16

That's 15. And I suppose some more of them can be united.

[krtaylor]

I completely agree with your basic idea, George. My question is simply whether your numerical allocations make sense.

The Patch Wiki says that there can be 88 road vehicles. It seems to me that we have 4 classes of road vehicle:

- Cargo-carrying road vehicles (lorries, trucks)
- Passenger-carrying normal road vehicles (busses)
- Trolleybusses
- Trams (ATM passengers only, but I suspect that will change)

Each of these needs to have a fair refresh rate. It's also possible that trams may need to be split into passenger and cargo carrying variants.

Evenly splitting the slots makes them 22 each. I think the LV set has more than 22 busses, but less than 22 trucks. I'd think 22 would be plenty for trams, and way more than needed for trolleybusses - 10 would do for those, I expect, as there were never that many of them.

OTOH, I've read that there's research into the slot handling system such that trams and trolleybusses may not share road vehicle IDs at all. In which case, this problem disappears entirely.

In the US, which is all I'm familiar with for trams, I think 16 slots would be plenty, UNLESS we were able to add steeplecabs pulling normal freight cars through city streets; I dunno how many IDs would be required then.

[eis_os]

OTOH, I've read that there's research into the slot handling system such that trams and trolleybusses may not share road vehicle IDs at all. In which case, this problem disappears entirely.

Where did you read that?

[RK]

A very good idea, because I haven't an idea what IDs to use.

[George]

I completely agree with your basic idea, George. My question is simply whether your numerical allocations make sense.
The Patch Wiki says that there can be 88 road vehicles. It seems to me that we have 4 classes of road vehicle:
- Cargo-carrying road vehicles (lorries, trucks)
- Passenger-carrying normal road vehicles (busses)

+ Tourist buses. Unless we have speed, power callbacks, they can't share IDs

- Trolleybusses

AFAIR, trolleybuses and trams can not be used at the same time. Ilaso I think they could share IDs with trams (it depends how they would be coded).

- Trams (ATM passengers only, but I suspect that will change)

They can be used for any cargo (I made a test and found, that it works fine)

Each of these needs to have a fair refresh rate.

3 years for buses, 7 for trucks and trams

It's also possible that trams may need to be split into passenger and cargo carrying variants.

I'm strongly against such a solution. What is the aim of it?

Evenly splitting the slots makes them 22 each.

Not a good solution

I think the LV set has more than 22 busses, but less than 22 trucks. I'd think 22 would be plenty for trams, and way more than needed for trolleybusses - 10 would do for those, I expect, as there were never that many of them.

I suggest 16 and 16

OTOH, I've read that there's research into the slot handling system such that trams and trolleybusses may not share road vehicle IDs at all. In which case, this problem disappears entirely.

Yes, but only when we get all required callbacks (most impotant are speed, power, AR, TE).

In the US, which is all I'm familiar with for trams, I think 16 slots would be plenty, UNLESS we were able to add steeplecabs pulling normal freight cars through city streets; I dunno how many IDs would be required then.

What for do you need cargo trams? why not to use lorries?

I suggest to use IDs 38-47 now, and when some set would hit this limit, it should use IDs 37 and below (that are now used for buses).

Code: Select all

00	1951	Bus	Mercedes-Benz O6600H
01	1954	Bus	Mercedes-Benz O321H
02	1956	Bus	Fiat 411
03	1958	Bus	Parkroyal Routemaster
04	1960	Bus	
05	1965	Bus	Mercedes-Benz O 302
06	1965	Bus	Saviem SC10 series
07	1970	Bus	
08	1973	Bus	Fiat 421 series
09	1975	Bus	Neoplan N122/3L 'Skyliner', 138/4 'Jumbocruiser'
0A	1980	Bus	Inbus 150/210/280 series
0B	1984	Bus	
0C	1988	Bus	Leyland Olympian
0D	1990	Bus	
0E	1993	Bus	Volvo 5000
0F	1997	Bus	Mercedes Tourismo O315RHD
10	2001	Bus	Scania CL94 UB Omni Link
11	2002	Bus	Volvo 9700
12	2005	Bus	Irisbus 'Civis'
13	2006	Bus	Setra S431DT Coach
14	2010	Bus	APTS Phileas
15	2012	Bus	Scania K124 Irizar PB
16	2017	Bus	Neoplan Starliner SHD
17	2020	Bus	Dolphin Intercity Bus
18	1926	Bus1	Skoda 505
19	1927	Bus1	Praga NO
1A	1930	Bus1	Tatra 24/58
1B	1937	Bus1	Tatra 27/91 (Diesel)
1C	1939	Bus1	Praga NDO
1D	1939	Bus1	Praga RND
1E	1949	Bus1	Skoda 706 RO
1F	1954	Bus1	Ikarus 55/66
20	1955	Bus1	ZiS 127
21	1958	Bus1	Skoda 706 RTO MTZ/MEX/CAR/LUX
22	1961	Bus1	Ikarus 620/630
23	1967	Bus1	LiAZ 677
24	1971	Bus1	Ikarus 260/280
25	1994	Bus1	Ikarbus IK-103/ IK-104/ IK-106/ IK-203/ 301
26	1920	Bus1-0	
27	1920	Bus1-0	
28	1920	Bus1-0	
29	1920	Bus1-0	
2A	1955	Bus1-0	Neoplan SH 30 Stromlinienbus
2B	1957	Bus1-0	Mercedes-Benz O317
2C	1920	Bus2	Mack C-14 City Bus
2D	1922	Bus2	Mack "Bulldog" S-20 Suburban Bus
2E	1936	Bus2	Flxible "Airway"
30	1940	Bus2	Flxible "Clipper"
2F	1940	Bus2	GMC TD-3701 Transit Bus
31	1945	Bus2	ACF/Brill IC-41 Highway coach 
32	1954	Bus2	Greyhound Scenicruiser
33	1956	Bus2	Eagle "01"
34	1959	Bus2	GMC "New look" urban transit bus
35	1963	Bus2	MCI "MC-5"
36	1973	Bus2	MCI "MC-8"
37	1982	Bus2	GMC TC40-102 "Classic"
47	1920	Tram 	PCC Boston BERy MTA MBTA MattapanAshmont
46	1922	Tram 	
45	1929	Tram 	
44	1936	Tram 	
43	1943	Tram 	
42	1950	Tram 	
41	1957	Tram 	
40	1964	Tram 	
3F	1971	Tram 	
3E	1978	Tram 	
3D	1985	Tram 	
3C	1992	Tram 	
3B	1999	Tram 	
3A	2006	Tram 	
39	2013	Tram 	
38	2020	Tram 	
57	1920	Truck	Ford T truck
56	1921	Truck	Skoda sentinel truck
55	1928	Truck	
54	1935	Truck	Opel-Blitz 3.6-36S
53	1942	Truck	
52	1950	Truck	
51	1957	Truck	International RDF-405 truck
50	1963	Truck	Mercedes LP 1623 truck
4F	1969	Truck	Skoda 706 MT truck
4E	1975	Truck	Scania CB 6x4/DB 4x2/GA 4x2 truck
4D	1983	Truck	FAP 1215
4C	1991	Truck	Kentworth k101 truck
4B	1999	Truck	Volvo FH 16 610 truck
4A	2007	Truck	McTruck truck
49	2013	Truck	Scania STAX truck
48	2019	Truck	Spitzer colani truck

[krtaylor]

Where did you read that?

George had mentioned something along that line, I forget which thread. The thought was that separating them by depot might allow the IDs to overlap somehow. I have no idea how that would work programmatically, and of course no clue what (if any) status there is. It does seem a bit strange, considering how much we've wanted the IDs expanded before, and how impossible that has always been. I've no idea how the tram internals work.

[eis_os]

Trams are actually road vehicles...

I have since ages seperate vehicle classes (much like the spritesystem) on my todo list with ids, the problem is simple to much code assumes certain ways things are stored...

[George]

OTOH, I've read that there's research into the slot handling system such that trams and trolleybusses may not share road vehicle IDs at all. In which case, this problem disappears entirely.

Where did you read that?

krtaylor only got the idea without details. I suggested to make trams as a "refit option" for buses, that, of cause, will require new callbacks. That would require additional coding, but may help with available IDs. The idea was that the callbeck happens not on refit event, but depending on current depot (bus at ID xx at bus depot, tram at ID xx at tram depot)

[krtaylor]

+ Tourist buses. Unless we have speed, power callbacks, they can't share IDs

Why not? How are tourist busses different from normal passenger busses, other than that they carry tourists instead of passengers? Do they have markedly different power or speed than the same model, passenger version?

AFAIR, trolleybuses and trams can not be used at the same time. Ilaso I think they could share IDs with trams (it depends how they would be coded).

I don't know about this, but I know I saw work on graphics for caternary intersections between trams and trolleybusses. There was a discussion about that in the trams thread; there are known to be such arrangements IRL. I dunno about the coding.

3 years for buses, 7 for trucks and trams

3 years seems closer together than it has to be for busses, I would say 7 would work for everything actually. Maybe not in the early years, but certainly later.

I suggest 16 and 16

16 is more than trolleybusses need, and I suspect less than some European tram systems would want. It's no problem for US sets.

What for do you need cargo trams? why not to use lorries?

Having steeplecabs hauling ordinary train freight-cars down city streets on tram tracks is not only cool-looking, it's perfectly realistic. Also, many street electric railways moved light cargo (TTD mail). Pacific Electric was well known for this.

[Bastiaan]

George, if I understand it right, you want to kind of force us to use only 16 IDs for trams, because you need more than 50 IDs for your long buses? That's pretty ridiculous, isn't it?

So, there are three RV types: tram, truck and bus. There are 88 RV IDs. Why don't split that number over three? Then every RV type will get 29 to 30 IDs. That's good enough for every RV type. And if you need more than 30 (or even more than 50 ), I suppose most of them can be united.

Bastiaan

[krtaylor]

It would be possible to have three different sorts of busses - North American, Western European, and Eastern European. IRL these don't overlap much, if at all. They could all be in one bus GRF, but with switches to determine which ones you'd get. This would reduce the number in any one game - I never get a chance to use them all anyway.

I agree with the idea of not having tons of separate GRF files. I would say it makes sense to have one truck/lorry GRF file, then a separate bus GRF file with the switch as I described. Of course, trolleys would either be yet another GRF file, or would be integrated in a larger train set.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Very good idea! In Serbian set will be 10 trolleybuses and about 10 trams. I just wonder what IDs to give them, and not to cause overlapping with some IDs.

[George]

George, if I understand it right, you want to kind of force us to use only 16 IDs for trams, because you need more than 50 IDs for your long buses? That's pretty ridiculous, isn't it?

Do not swindle, Bastiaan. They are not only my buses, but also Greyfur's, Wile's, DanMacK's buses too

So, there are three RV types: tram, truck and bus. There are 88 RV IDs. Why don't split that number over three?

There are many reasons to do that. For example, 30 trucks are too mauch because of sprite limit. For buses 30 are not enough, because now we can't put coach buses and city buses to the same slots

Then every RV type will get 29 to 30 IDs. That's good enough for every RV type.

Wrong here. RV types are different

And if you need more than 30 (or even more than 50 ), I suppose most of them can be united.

Many of them are already united. Some IDs hold more than 10 buses! I use this feature as much as possible.

[eis_os]

Busses and Trucks have already 11k own sprites, sorry I never understand your rant verytime about the spritelimit... Be glad that you have your own spritelimit! (That are around 200 sprites per bus/truck/tram id, or 40 for 8 views, I know it's not suited for putting all trucks ingame, but it's A LOT better then the pre spritelimit patch days, you only need to worry in your own region and don't think about, say stations, trains and other sets...)

You tend to make everything very complicate George, last time I tried to load parts of you busset, the result was only errors I need x other sets, what the purporse of haveing seperate GRFs when there all are need? - Thats a Patchdev User experience, I end up not useing the set at all.

If you have a good idea for the spritelimit, feel free to tell the world. My spritelimit patch seems to very stable since the beginning and is fully compatible to TTD. I think you should worry more about ways to reduce sprites on your side, or bring new ideas to do it (as Michael tries to do).

Sorry, I see you the most time ranting about stuff in TTDPatch or try to make things as much complicate (so others are not able to join or collaborate) since a year. Can you please stop that?

(My post should be seen as fair comment)

[Bastiaan]

Many of them are already united. Some IDs hold more than 10 buses! I use this feature as much as possible.

That means you have much and much more than 50 buses
That is just too many, George. And I don't use even one of them...

[krtaylor]

The more I read here, the more I like my thought of keeping the three separate regional bus sets. I know personally I've used maybe 1/10 of the busses. But as I play through different regions, and using busses appropriate to each region, I'd get a chance to use more of them. If they're all in one massive set, I'll just stick with my half-dozen favorites and leave it at that. That's a waste.

[George]

+ Tourist buses. Unless we have speed, power callbacks, they can't share IDs

Why not? How are tourist busses different from normal passenger busses, other than that they carry tourists instead of passengers? Do they have markedly different power or speed than the same model, passenger version?

They have high power, speed and low AR in comparison with standard buses. I hope we'd have required call-backs, otherwise we'd have to reserve IDs for them

AFAIR, trolleybuses and trams can not be used at the same time. I also I think they could share IDs with trams (it depends how they would be coded).

I don't know about this, but I know I saw work on graphics for caternary intersections between trams and trolleybuses. There was a discussion about that in the trams thread; there are known to be such arrangements IRL. I dunno about the coding.

As soon as required call-back appear, they can be united on one ID, I suppose

3 years for buses, 7 for trucks and trams

3 years seems closer together than it has to be for busses, I would say 7 would work for everything actually. Maybe not in the early years, but certainly later.

How often do new trains appear? The only reason, why I limited the number of trucks to 16, is the sprite limit.

I suggest 16 and 16

16 is more than trolleybuses need, and I suspect less than some European tram systems would want. It's no problem for US sets.

16 for trams and 16 for trucks. I didn't find the place for trolleybuses yet. I suppose it would 28-37h, but I'm not sure

What for do you need cargo trams? why not to use lorries?

Having steeple cabs hauling ordinary train freight-cars down city streets on tram tracks is not only cool-looking, it's perfectly realistic. Also, many street electric railways moved light cargo (TTD mail). Pacific Electric was well known for this.

It is not the answer. In TTD world many things from real life cant happen. So, I repeat the question: why do you need something else than trucks and trains?
I suppose things you want could be done without new IDs (with refit option), but there is no place for them.

It would be possible to have three different sorts of busses - North American, Western European, and Eastern European. IRL these don't overlap much, if at all. They could all be in one bus GRF, but with switches to determine which ones you'd get. This would reduce the number in any one game - I never get a chance to use them all anyway.

In LV4 they are rather different and I think there is place for all of them

I agree with the idea of not having tons of separate GRF files. I would say it makes sense to have one truck/lorry GRF file, then a separate bus GRF file with the switch as I described. Of course, trolleys would either be yet another GRF file, or would be integrated in a larger train set.

For now, I suggest to coordinate work on trams first.

So, everyone, who use trams, please, use RV's IDs 38h-47h. When someone will ran out of 16 IDs, we'd make a new research, ok?

And now, please, stay in IDs 38h-47h.