dual track setup help!

[Graham Moore]

HI guys,

I've got a very busy route and I'm trying to double up the amount of tracks
(double the capacity, right?), but the configuration isn't going too well.

Has anyone seen a tutorial about with a 4 track system? (2 in each
direction).

Cheers,

G

[Boudewijn Dijkstra]

"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> schreef in bericht
news:1113647017.46487.0@iris.uk.clara.net...

HI guys,

I've got a very busy route and I'm trying to double up the amount of tracks
(double the capacity, right?), but the configuration isn't going too well.

What is the configuration? How many types of trains are using it? Do you
have breakdowns turned on?

Has anyone seen a tutorial about with a 4 track system? (2 in each
direction).

I haven't.

[Tom Cumming]

On 16/04/05 11:24, Graham Moore wrote:

HI guys,

I've got a very busy route and I'm trying to double up the amount of tracks
(double the capacity, right?), but the configuration isn't going too well.

Has anyone seen a tutorial about with a 4 track system? (2 in each
direction).

The problem is with two tracks running parallel and running to
exactly the same places, trains will invariably just take
whichever is the slightly shorter one and ignore the other one.

The way I usually do it, if it proves necessary, is usually one of
the following or some kind of combination:

- Have a fast line and a slow line. Use two small waypoint
stations at the start of each line, and mark your faster trains to
use one and the slower ones to use another. This reduces the
impact of slower trains holding up the faster ones.

- Have one line for trains stopping at intermediate stations and
one line for straight through trains. Then the straight through
line doesn't have to go through midway station platforms, and
straight through trains can overtake the stoppers. Again, you may
need to use waypoint stations to tell the trains which route to use.

- Use multiple tracks to split up trains with different
destinations. For example, if you had a line with a junction like
this:
-------------------------------------------------
\
\
\
\

where some trains go straight ahead and some take diverging line,
change it to something like this:

-------------------------------------------------
\-----------------------------------\
\
\
\
Then the trains taking the diverging line have to "filter off"
earlier, and reduces strain on the straight through line.


--
Tom Cumming

New to this newsgroup? Please have a read of the Frequently Asked
Questions (FAQ) list at <http://www.tt-forums.net/faq/>. Thanks.

[Boudewijn Dijkstra]

"Tom Cumming" <m...@privacy.net> schreef in bericht
news:d3r6po$sli$1@joesbox.cjb.net...

The problem is with two tracks running parallel and running to exactly the
same places, trains will invariably just take whichever is the slightly
shorter one and ignore the other one.

That can be solved easily with 2-way signals.

[Tom Cumming]

On 17/04/05 11:41, Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote:

"Tom Cumming" <m...@privacy.net> schreef in bericht
news:d3r6po$sli$1@joesbox.cjb.net...

The problem is with two tracks running parallel and running to exactly the
same places, trains will invariably just take whichever is the slightly
shorter one and ignore the other one.

That can be solved easily with 2-way signals.

Well true, but they'll still only take the shortest one unless
occupied, then the longer one. It wouldn't be able to deal with
things like "I'm a non-stop train, so I'll take the line that
doesn't go through station a", or "I've got a faster train behind
me so I'll divert onto this longer track to let it overtake" -
which is where it is useful to use waypoint stations.

--
Tom Cumming

New to this newsgroup? Please have a read of the Frequently Asked
Questions (FAQ) list at <http://www.tt-forums.net/faq/>. Thanks.

[Graham Moore]

"Tom Cumming" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:d3r6po$sli$1@joesbox.cjb.net...

On 16/04/05 11:24, Graham Moore wrote:
HI guys,

I've got a very busy route and I'm trying to double up the amount of
tracks (double the capacity, right?), but the configuration isn't going
too well.

Has anyone seen a tutorial about with a 4 track system? (2 in each
direction).

The problem is with two tracks running parallel and running to exactly the
same places, trains will invariably just take whichever is the slightly
shorter one and ignore the other one.

Cheers for all of your help guys.

I decided to split the 8 track stations at either end into 2 lots of 4 (have
one loop per train), but then simply use a 'combined' signal between the two
entry points, meaning that trains can get in and out doubly fast, but can
still escape to the other loop if it's own loop is too busy.

It's a bit of a muck around really to test high capacity stations and
routes. I created a scenario with a very rich source of coal and enhanced
the mines with the saved game editor and created a single power station at
the other end of the map.

)

Cheers again,

G

[Tony Polson]

"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> wrote:

I decided to split the 8 track stations at either end into 2 lots of 4 (have
one loop per train), but then simply use a 'combined' signal between the two
entry points, meaning that trains can get in and out doubly fast, but can
still escape to the other loop if it's own loop is too busy.

I would be very interested to see this. Please could you show us how
this works? Is there any chance you could post a print screen on a
web site so we can see what you described here?

[Graham Moore]

"Tony Polson" <t...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:nhm561hrpe1l6ma2rn6v8r5dscema0b6ak@4ax.com...

"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> wrote:

I decided to split the 8 track stations at either end into 2 lots of 4
(have
one loop per train), but then simply use a 'combined' signal between the
two
entry points, meaning that trains can get in and out doubly fast, but can
still escape to the other loop if it's own loop is too busy.


I would be very interested to see this. Please could you show us how
this works? Is there any chance you could post a print screen on a
web site so we can see what you described here?

No probs, I have a PCX file of the setup, but MS Paint doesn't seem to want
to read it, any ideas what to do with it?

Cheers,

G

[Boudewijn Dijkstra]

"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> schreef in bericht
news:1113817593.32100.0@echo.uk.clara.net...

"Tony Polson" <t...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:nhm561hrpe1l6ma2rn6v8r5dscema0b6ak@4ax.com...
"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> wrote:

I decided to split the 8 track stations at either end into 2 lots of 4
(have
one loop per train), but then simply use a 'combined' signal between the
two
entry points, meaning that trains can get in and out doubly fast, but can
still escape to the other loop if it's own loop is too busy.

I would be very interested to see this. Please could you show us how
this works? Is there any chance you could post a print screen on a
web site so we can see what you described here?

No probs, I have a PCX file of the setup, but MS Paint doesn't seem to want
to read it, any ideas what to do with it?

Use a proper image editor (like IrfanView) to convert to PNG and then upload
it to a website.

[Tony Polson]

"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> wrote:

No probs, I have a PCX file of the setup, but MS Paint doesn't seem to want
to read it, any ideas what to do with it?

If you press the "Print-Scrn" key you will find a bitmap (.bmp) file
of the screen image gets copied to your clipboard. If you paste this
file into a web page (.html) using MS FrontPage or your chosen editor,
you can upload the page to a web site.

I am sure there are other ways too, but I am no expert!

[Graham Moore]

"Tony Polson" <t...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:l0376199kdud5p9cru3h01k1te0memai7q@4ax.com...

"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> wrote:

No probs, I have a PCX file of the setup, but MS Paint doesn't seem to
want
to read it, any ideas what to do with it?


If you press the "Print-Scrn" key you will find a bitmap (.bmp) file
of the screen image gets copied to your clipboard. If you paste this
file into a web page (.html) using MS FrontPage or your chosen editor,
you can upload the page to a web site.

I am sure there are other ways too, but I am no expert!

Hi guys,

3 URLs:

http://gserv.graham-moore.com/source.png
http://gserv.graham-moore.com/destination.png
http://gserv.graham-moore.com/trp01.sv1

The 3rd one is of course the saved game.

This is probably something someone has done before a million times, but it's
managed to solve the issue of very high capacity lines. If anyone else went
about this in a different way, I'd love to hear from them.

Please let me know what you think - and I already know I'm not exactly the
tidiest builder in the world!

Cheers,

G

[Graham Moore]

"Graham Moore" <gra...@blahspamblahgraham-moore.com> wrote in message
news:1113834320.30585.0@eunomia.uk.clara.net...

"Tony Polson" <t...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:l0376199kdud5p9cru3h01k1te0memai7q@4ax.com...
"Graham Moore" <gra...@graham-moore.com> wrote:

No probs, I have a PCX file of the setup, but MS Paint doesn't seem to
want
to read it, any ideas what to do with it?


If you press the "Print-Scrn" key you will find a bitmap (.bmp) file
of the screen image gets copied to your clipboard. If you paste this
file into a web page (.html) using MS FrontPage or your chosen editor,
you can upload the page to a web site.

I am sure there are other ways too, but I am no expert!



Hi guys,

3 URLs:

http://gserv.graham-moore.com/source.png
http://gserv.graham-moore.com/destination.png
http://gserv.graham-moore.com/trp01.sv1

The 3rd one is of course the saved game.

I have actually just seen the setups on this site:

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~dou/ttd ... l#combined

Which are what I've tried to do on my network.

Excellent site may I add.

[Christoph 'Mehdorn' Weber]

Hallo!

Graham Moore <gra...@graham-moore.com>:

I've got a very busy route and I'm trying to double up the amount of tracks
(double the capacity, right?), but the configuration isn't going too well.
Has anyone seen a tutorial about with a 4 track system? (2 in each
direction).

I had created a setup with four tracks on a specially crafted map. The
map consisted of a huge donut-shaped island and a little round island in
the middle. On the donut part I built four tracks in parallel forming a
huge ring. Every 10 or 15 squares I created crossing tracks with normal
signals[0]. Let's try an ASCII graphic:

H
S
====SXS====
====SXS====
====SXS====
====S^S====

(If there is no station, I usually built a depot instead of the "H")

The "="'s and the "H"'s are normal straight rails. The "X"'s are
fields with every buildable track in one field. The "^" is a reduces "X"
with only one straight track going trought (so a track on the lowest
rail can pass over to the lowest track on the other side of the signals.
The signals are marked with the "S". There are no stations in the ring.
The only chance to get to a station is to leave the ring on one of the
"H"-rails to a station connected to them (I tried to build the shortest
path to the stations).

At big station connections I had sometimes two or three "X"-rails next
to each other, somehow looking like this:

HHH
SSS
====SXXXS====
====SXXXS====
====SXXXS====
====S^^^S====

Yes, in reality, trains may crash if the are driving in circles on
such a construction, but in Transport Tycoon (till deluxe) and in
OpenTTD it seems to be no problem when an engines goes through another
wagon. You even can wind up a train on a construction like this one:

/\
___/\/\s_

(I never played the patch, so please save the game before you may kill
your trains.)

The train will wind up in the circle when the signal is red. But it
may finally leave it if it's red too long.

Ok, let's speak again about the large ring contruct. It's not a
high speed train collider, as you may think. And it worked fine. Trains
come to the ring, select a free block and go round till the leave to
their next station. The only difficulty are breakdowns one X-fields. The
whole ring part will be blocked before the train will go on.

There are two solutions:

1. Only create a few full-featured rails to stations. Try constructions
like this one instead:

H H H
S S S
====SXS==== .. ====SXS==== .. ====SXS====
====S^S=a== .. ====SXS==== .. ====S^S====
====SvS==== .. ====SXS==== .. ====SvS====
====S^S==== .. ====S^S==== .. ====S^S====

So, a breakdown on the way to the seconds station may still cause the
old problems, but at station one and three only the half ring will be
influenced. Trains that won't need to go to station one or three have a
chance to select a free block if they are not to close to the breakdown
(i.e. waiting at the point marked with "a" while a train broke down at
the signals while traversing to station one.

2. You may use two rails in every direction. Then you may build
something like this:

H The "<"'s and the ">"'s are one way signals. "B" means that
H==\ there is a bridge or a tunnel. As you may notice, the rails
S B in the middle aren't connected to each other. The trains
====>X>=B== may go through the this as above, but only in the given
====<^<=B== directions. You can have the advantages of (1.) one every
====<v<=B== branch to a station, but you have to deal with the brigde
====>^>=B== workaround.
H B
\==/

If you combine variants (1.) and (2.), you could live without the
brigde:

H H H
S S S
=a==>X>==== .. ====>X>==== .. ====>X>====
=b==<X<==== .. ====<^<==== .. ====<X<====
=c==>X>==== .. ====>v>==== .. ====>X>====
=d==<^<==== .. ====<^<==== .. ====<^<====

Think of a train on rail "c" which wants to go to station 2. It may
travel at the branch of station 1 to rail "a" and finally reach its
station. If it breaks down at the branch to station 2 and a train on
rail "a" tries to get to station three, it can easyly use rail "c" to
pass to its destination. But again, breakdowns at station one or three
are still a problem.

But, as no stations are directly one the ring, there are no problems
with waiting trains in them. And it works fine with long trains.

In a special litte city getting goods from a factory in the next
valley, I found the following construction working best:

Factory City
D D
TTTTTTTSX>=====>=====>== .. ==>=====>=====>XTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTSX<=====<=====<== .. ==>=====>=====</
TTTTTTTS/

In this example, the "T"'s are stations, "D"'s are depots. Three
trains may load at one time, head one after each other to the city
station and unload one after another. Yes, breakdowns are a problem,
but the station in the city can't be enlarged without definitly
disgusting the authorities, and the track to the city on the mountain
is even complicated enought.

But, with five or six trains on it, it's my best line in this
savegame (at least if I use the train incomes as relation). So, the
breakdowns seems not to be a large problem. But i think you may build
something like this:

Factory City
D D
TTTTTTTSX>====v>====v>== .. =v>====v>=====>X>TTTTTTTSX
TTTTTTTSX S S S S X>TTTTTTTSX
TTTTTTTSX>====^>====^>== .. =^>====^>=====>X>TTTTTTTSX
TTTTTTTSX H
TTTTTTTSX<=====<v====<v= ............ ==<v====<v====<X
TTTTTTTSX S S S S H
TTTTTTTSX<=====<^====<^= ............ ==<^====<^====</

Ok, the station mustn't be _such_ big. But now the small trains may
switch to the parallel rail if there is some breakdown. It should still
work, but the authorities would surely get very angry if I try this.

HTH,
Christoph

[0] This was and old version of Transport Tycoon with the World Editor
(DOS), so the new signal types were still missing.

[Stevie D]

Graham Moore wrote:

I've got a very busy route and I'm trying to double up the amount of tracks
(double the capacity, right?), but the configuration isn't going too well.

Has anyone seen a tutorial about with a 4 track system? (2 in each
direction).

I'm guessing you have probably solved this yourself or got bored in
the month since you wrote that as I can't access the screenshots or
saved game you posted links to, but I've only just started reading the
group again. I'll give you my take on it, but feel free to ignore it!

For most situations, normal double track with regular signals is fine.
Sometimes you need additional tracks - the usual pinch points are
stations, junctions, long bridges and tunnels, uphills, and where you
have mixed speed traffic.

If you build a standard 4-track station with 2 up lines and 2 down
lines, allowing all trains to choose between either line, that is
usually sufficient for a through station. The only time you might want
more is if there are a lot of stopping trains, regularly filling both
platforms, _and_ non-stopping trains that then have to wait for them.

Junctions - can be easy or tricky, depending on the junction layout.
One key point is to make sure that trains going round sharp bends or
uphill completely clear the mainline first by providing a relief line
on the approach to a junction.

If you have uphill sections that significantly slow down your trains,
build a relief line on the hill - it needs to start just far enough
back that trains clear the junction then slow down on the hill, and
needs to carry on beyond the top of the hill to give trains time to
speed up again. Assuming all trains have similar speed profiles, treat
the two lines as equal, with regular signal spacing along both of
them.

If you have mixed speed traffic, you will do best to either provide
two completely separate running lines - one fast and one slow - with
little or no link between them. If the lines do have to merge at
junctions or stations, use signalboxes to separate the trains
afterwards.

If none of that applies and you are still short of capacity, you may
need to quad-track your whole line. If you can divide the traffic
roughly in half in some way, do that, and keep the two halves entirely
separate. If not, at the start of the double track have two-way
signals and a slightly longer signal block than usual to ensure that
trains take alternate lines. Don't provide connections from one line
to the other other than where absolutely necessary, because every link
has the potential to bring trains into conflict and thus reduce
capacity.

Please note that none of the above takes path-based signalling into
account.

--
Stevie D
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