..,,;;:: Spain set ::;;,,.. 90% taster 1.24 available

[Sanchimaru]

Hola, amigos!
Come in and take seat over there, I think there must be some red wine and olives left for you

Since I first learned that it was possible to add new vehicles for TTD, I've been dreaming of having a vehicle replacement set based in spanish trains.

So finally I found these forums! since there was already a set running for japanese trains, I first joined the Japan set (link in my signature) and I've been working for it since over one year ago. Some job is yet to be done for the Japan set, but that's mostly slight details we will keep adding with time.

Now that it has been almost finished, I've decided to begin the project I've been dreaming of since some years ago.
For this I am counting on the help of many people: some members, such as krtaylor or Raven; and people from away the forums, as Carlos Perez Arnau.

Everybody is invited to come in and collaborate, we need coders; for the various features we are thinking to include in this set, artists; for the variety of trains, other vehicles, liveries, environment and buildings, and documenters; to bring us information on technical specifications, data, pictures and references.
I do know that many people is at the moment busy with other sets, but I will appreciate any kind of help here

Feel free to take a glance at the very first work: the tracking table. Krtaylor gently offered himself to provide with the hosting and HTML editing for it.
The list is mostly done, but there are still many holes left. We will have it updated as soon as we can.

Gracias! adios!

-*-*-*-*-

Update, Feb. 2, 2006:

The first taster version of the set is released, thanks to Death, our coder.
You can find it in the link in my signature.

It includes some of the 1st generation locomotives, the long distance and regional passenger cars, and the mail coaches. It has to be developed yet, and may have some minor problems, but it works fine Enjoy it!

- - - -

Spain set taster, latest version found here

Spanish Town Names found here

High-speed tracks found here

[Szappy]

Glad, that you started it finally, and I wish you luck.
I don't dare to volunteer for coding just yet, considering the japan set progress...
I'll keep an eye on this one though.

Oh, and I sincerely hope this set will finally run in the tropic climate. That is my favourite, and only one set is usable in it so far (USSet), which I don't like the pricing.

[Sanchimaru]

Szappy, thanks a lot. I don't want to push anyone; I actually prefer you to finish first whatever other projects you are busy with at this moment. But I do appreciate highly you and gl2' abilites in coding; so I'd be quite glad to have you here.

About the climate...
Spain is not quite trocpical; even when the southern zones are quite hot. I mean, if someone from Spain looked at the spanish trains running across rainforests, with monkey and tucan sounds, transporting rubber, and passing through deserts; he would think that it's ridiculous.

But I had an idea for a special climate type in the Spain set. I hope you can tell me how near is this from possible:
Climate in Spain is rainy in the north and sunny in the south. Also there are very different architecture types in each of the places, mostly the traditional one; which is indeed adapted to the wheather. Houses in the south are all white, made in a way they reflect heat and keep the house fresh. The ones in the north are darker, made with stone, or bricks, designed to be more hermetic and don't allow the heat to go away.

So southern Spain looks more like Greece, Naples, Turkey; but not like Amazon, Brazil, or Cuba. There are palm trees and even some cactus, but no desert, monkeys, tucans or rainforest there...
The same with the north: it's more like Scotland; not like Norway. It rains a lot, and eventually snows, but there is not snow usually there.

So what I'd like to have is:
2 different types of soil, where different trees and buildings grow. The later buildings can be shared in both, but the early buildings shall have a more different look.
So the soil itself would work like the desert in TTD: different tiles, different trees; and the buildings more like the snow in TTD: different looking buildings in the snowy areas.

Actually the main difference would be the kind of trees and buildings that grow in each wheather tile type.

So, would this be possible?

[Purno]

Wow, you already got a tracking table

Maybe I'll jump in some time. Anyways, some trains look like ones I drew... I recognise some Danish train in the 594 DMU for example...

[Villem]

i might take a shot at the 446 EMU..

[Edit]Took a shot, and failed..

[onodera]

If you need anything orthogonal to be drawn you can count me in. ^^'

[Raven]

Hi, i wish you luck in the project.
I've been looking for some nicknames for the locos, these are quite strange , hope i can translate them fine enough:

Well, you've got a photo there of a 041, ain't it a german 141?, i'll go and get a photo (let's see if i'm lucky)

316 was also called alco
276 was called Francesa - French
319 Retales, or Calderos - (Piece of cloth ??) , Cauldron
the second 319 is indeed a 340, called Huevo, or La Bruja Averia ( ), Egg, or ... well, one of those puppet characters of our spanish childhood
269 Japonesa - Japanese
440 Caperucitas, pateras -- No idea how to translate this..., patera is a little crappy boat
333 old model : Rambo
333 new model : Prima
444 Españolitos, Cangrejos -- Little spanish people, crabs
250 Alemanas - German
251 Japonesa y media - Japanese and a half, quite original one
446 Dodotis, metros - Napkin, metro
594 TRD(Fast Diesel Train), Zodiacs, i even recall having heard the name Cara de Indio (indian face)
ain't the new talgo locomotive sexy?
i might be wrong , but the 104 photo isn't a 490 alaris unit?

Kind regards

[krtaylor]

I'll add the nicknames to the tracking table right away. I'm taking care of the table because Sanchimaru does not know HTML, but I'm not really planning on running the set like I've done others because I know nothing about the Spanish railways, and I cannot read Spanish. I'm just here to help.

Is there anybody here that is currently living in Spain? Sanchimaru is Spanish, but he lives in Japan. The reason I ask is, because we need to find out what mainline diesel locomotives are in use. Sanchimaru says that mostly the Spanish railways are electrified, which is all well and good, but if so then why do they need diesel Talgos? There must be plenty of non-electrified tracks for that to be worthwhile, and if so, surely they do not use those tracks just for passengers; there must also be freight there, and that means diesel locos. Yes, maybe the locos from the 1980s are still around, but didn't the traffic increase so they would need to buy more? We need to find this out.

As far as the climate, I suddenly had an idea which does not require any Patching at all. Sanchimaru says that Spain is not really desert, but does have both a drier area and a wetter area. And hey, the Tropic climate has two distinct regions, the "rainforest" area which is mountainous, and the flatter "desert" area. So all we need to do is replace the yellow sandy tiles with something a little less dry looking, maybe a kind of chapparal. The Aussie set has done something like this and it looks very nice, you could do something similar or even ask to borrow their tiles. Then you'd replace the desert cactus with something more approrpriate, olive and fig trees perhaps? Then last, you'd replace the rainforest trees with something from the wetter part of Spain, or maybe just borrow the TTD Temperate trees. Then there you are - two separate climates, but not actually "desert" and "jungle." Yet it's in the underused Tropic TTD environment. Problem solved. You could even save some of the Tropic buildings maybe, though you'd want some more modern looking ones for later years.

[Sanchimaru]

Everbody: thanks for your collaborations! just come anytime you might have time, a good set takes a lot of time to be completed, and we are in no hurry.

Purno: you know you are welcome anytime, I like a lot your work. Your tuotrials helped me a lot in understanding how shading and perspective work in TTD
Indeed, as you noted there are a lot of non-spanish trains over there: one of the AVE is a repaint of the TGV Atlantique; and another is an ICE3. There are 2 locomotives from Japan and many from Germany and central Europe.

Akalamanaia: keep trying you can claim the train if you want to give it a go

onodera: would you like to try doing any MU? if not, we are planning to replace buildings as well. There are none yet in the developement site, but we'll add them later.

Raven: that was great! thanks a lot.
about one of the nicknames you mentioned: La bruja Averia. She was a puppet character for a television show, as you noted. We'll have to tell to the forum members that her name menas "Breakdown witch"... I can't imagine why did they put such a nickname to a train...
"Caperucita" is this stupid tale character, a girl with a red hood hwo goes to take food to her granny in the forest and meets the Bad Wolf in her way. Either this girl was semi-blind, or either that granny must have been a quite ugly woman; since "Caperucita" never realized that it was the wolf dressed with the old lady's clothes, and not the actual grandmother. well, back on topic.

krtaylor: Hm, you've got quite an idea there for the tropic climate addaptation. We'll see, but I'm beginning to like it. The problem would be the industries, which in real life work just the opposite the tropic climate does: in the northern wet lands there are dense forest areas, lots of mines with coal and ore. In the south there are plantations for citric fruit and olives.
In that case, maybe we actually should modify the arctic, rather than the tropic: we would just have to change snow for wet land. By doing this, we would also skip the problem of the sounds of jaguars, monkeys and tucans... there is this blizzard wind blowing in the snow, but that's not so bad compared with the jungle, is it?

[krtaylor]

I think you'll find that we can finesse the Tropic industries, and that will be easier than trying to make Arctic work for Spain.

Please check the nicknames on the tracking table, you had some confusing ones. We can't have two nicknames for one train, either.

In English, Caperucita is known as "Little Red Riding Hood."

Are there not sprites lying around from other places, that we can use for some of the trains? They should be collected, and I'll post them in the table.

[Sanchimaru]

Riding!!?? wait a moment, there was no horse in the tale, so... well, nevermind, I don't want to know

Let's see what can we do with the climates...

About the vehicles, yes, it's time almost we begin to collect the models that match with the trains from the list. We'll ask the authors and edit / addapt them if needed later, but now let's see what can match.
To the artists: if you've drawn a model that matches one from the Spain tracking table, would you mind allow us to use it for this set? if there are any repainting or remodelling needed, you can either do it yourself if you want or let someone to do it.

For example, singaporekid drew the TGV atlantique, Purno said he has one similar locomotive too, Raven said there are some german steamers, and we have 2 electrics from the Japan set. I'll look for the sprites in the Japan set.
If any of the artists reads this, could you please tell us if you agree to share it with us and post here the sprite?

gracias!

[krtaylor]

The Japanese trains are the same, yes, but I think they have a different livery so they'll need a repaint.

German locos, well, we know we cannot use MB's, so we would have to have new ones. Maybe Saskia or Singaporekid has already drawn them, but if not, they will have to be re-drawn fresh.

Spain shares some equipment with France, so we can ask the French-set people if we can use some of their sprites; I'm sure they won't mind, but I do not know if they are ready yet. They have a TGV Atlantique but there was some debate about its sizing.

Little Red Riding Hood is a description of her clothing. She wore a cape and a hood, which was known as a riding hood. It would be worn when riding a horse, although of course LRRH herself was on foot. It was red, and she was little. Ergo, Little Red Riding Hood.

Also, in the Western version of the tale, I think LRRH did catch on that it was a wolf, but she played along so as to stall for time.

I am reminded of a famous Tex Avery cartoon, Red Hot Riding Hood.

http://www.cottet.org/avery/avloup.en.htm

[Sanchimaru]

From the Japan set, we shall use the EF66 and EF81. They match with the Renfe 251 and 269 respectively

[DaleStan]

I think you'll find that we can finesse the Tropic industries, and that will be easier than trying to make Arctic work for Spain.

One thing to consider there is that tropic currently only has 11 cargo types, while arctic has 12.
There are still 12 slots, but ...
*shuts up and checks the wiki*

I take that back. It looks like it's possible to put a twelfth cargo type in the tropic climate, if you are so inclined.

AFAICT, town-growth rules cannot be circumvented. If food and water (or their equivalents) are not delivered to the "desert" towns they will not grow; ditto for food and snowy towns in arctic.

[Sanchimaru]

I've been thinking about the climates, it's really hard, and to have them working properly, we'll have either to stick on temperate, or have some modifications...

The more I think about it, more the arctic climate fits better than tropical for Spain. Remember this is not as for weather similarity, but for how does teh mechanism works for each of the climates compared to how geography and industry works in spain:

Arctic

- snow / normal: would be rainy/ hot land in Spain
- only in snow there can be forests, only in normal there can be farms
- most of the industries in arctic can stay the same, since there are such ones in Spain: coal, paper, wood, wheat, livestock, food, goods
- the only non matching industries are oil and gold. I thought of changing oil into olives > goods into goods(olive oil) ; and gold into vegetables > bank into city market. These ones could be changed, however, if somenoe offers a better idea

Tropical

- rainforest / desert: would be wet / dry
- the jungle sounds must definatley dissapear. Despite I don't think it has ever been done, I'm certain that someone, maybe Patchman himself, said that sounds could be replaced. In that case we should look for woods sounds (maybe wolves, owls...). But even if we do so, I honestly think that the tropics are too noisy. It's fine if we can just eliminate those sounds...
- almost none of the industries in tropical exist in Spain. Only the sawmill, the copper ore mine, foods, goods and the farm. And the tropical farm doesn't produce livestock, only maize. Livestock is a very important industry in Spain; there must absolutely be livestock. The industries in tropic should hence be changed to:

• fruit > cictric fruit (oranges and lemons)
  
  rubber > ??? (maybe wood)
  
  oil > olives
  
  watertank > ???
  
  watertower > ???
  
  oil refinery > olive oil factory
  
  bank > market
  
  diamonds > vegetables

I don't know well what could we put in the places with ??? If we think a little bit I'm certain that many good ideas will come. But even that way we would have a problem:

fruit, rubber, farm : only in rainforest
water : only in desert

If fruit is going to be citrics, it must be in the hot land, not in the wet land.

So as far, it still seems to me that arctic will be easier to addapt than tropic. However, I'd like to hear the expert's opinion first

[Szappy]

I see most of you definately disregard the 'newindustries' feature. It can rearrange / reprogram industry types and industry vectors (accepted / produced cargo). I know, it was not announced that loudly, as some of the other 'impossible' features, but in fact Csaba *did* make this impossible feature come true.
All-in-all, you don't have to think in a one-on-one substitution of the industries, you are free to imagine, the only limitation is, that the maximum cargo types in a game must not exceed 12.

Oh, and it's the _tropic_ climate, that has 12 cargo types, temp / arctic has only 11.

Other
Even if Spain is not paticularly 'tropic', it would be nice to have (another) one set capable of tropic games. And in this, Spain is the closest to being tropic, of the trainsets released so far.

-edit- spelling errors corrected

[Wile E. Coyote]

I think 314 looks like (or thats' the same loco) Serbian 661 'Kenedijevka' (it's also made by General Motors). Also, there is in Serbian set MACOSA 712 DMU (I can't recognise it in your tracking table).

[onodera]

onodera: would you like to try doing any MU? if not, we are planning to replace buildings as well. There are none yet in the developement site, but we'll add them later.

I might try to do a MU, but what is the scale?
The houses will use standard TTD scale, won't they?

[Sanchimaru]

Szappy, thanks for the information. The fact is that, at least myself, don't know much about the possibilites or limitations of this newindustries feature. Maybe that is my fault for not looking for them in the manual... but allow me to do some questions:

So, you say we can have 11/12 kinds of cargo: but can we customize this cargo? I mean have Olives, Olive Oil, Cictrics, Milk, etc. as cargo themselves; not the default game's Wood, Iron ore, etc...

I suppose we can have brand new sprites for each.

And, can we decide where an industry appears / doesn't apppear? (forest only in snow, etc...)

If we could do that, then only 2 problems remaining:

> I'd like to have different architecture for rainy and hot parts
> Monkeys, tucans and jaguars. But they say we can change them... If we can have them mute, that will be perfect!

But overall, the newindustries feature seems quite promising!
I see also your point about the tropics. I think we can work on that!

W.Coyote: Indeed, that locomotive looks a lot alike. And since TTD sprites are so small, that one you drew seems to be quite good! Wow! we have our first locomotive. I only ask you to give it more shading. Add more dark green tones to it and it's ready. If you do so, I'll upgrade the status to 2%!

onodera: It's the usual TTD scale, for trains and houses. I'll be busy this coming week, but I'll look for documentation on houses

[Wile E. Coyote]

I only ask you to give it more shading. Add more dark green tones to it and it's ready. If you do so, I'll upgrade the status to 2%!

I'll do it as soon as possible. BTW, I didn't see wagons in tracking table. Look at Serbian tracking table, if you find more something useful.