The game: first impression and questions

[Yuffie]

I've downloaded the demo and played a bit with it. Overall, I'm not impressed, apart from the RCT-like rail construction (which is good in some cases, bad in others), I'm surprised at how little evolution there has been over the good old TTDX. From this point of view Simutrans is doing much better.

I start with some questions:
- is there an "auto-terraform" switch for track building? Just like in RCT, landscaping can take ages. It would be nice to set a checkbox and have the game auto-landscape the tiles to allow the construction of the track (just like a tunnel is automatically started).
- is there some kind of speed limit in the demo? Even trains supposed to go faster than 80km/h have a top speed of 80km/h.
- do industries still close randomly even when they are serviced fully?

Now some comments (I may be wrong, in which case a correction is welcome):
- same problems as RCT: being forced to build in real-time even when playing single-player and no undo feature (you can demolish, but it costs tons of money).
- same economical system of TTDX: passengers/mail with no destination and unbalanced distribution of goods when multiple stations are serving the same industry.
- I find ridiculous that you can build a "station in the sky" over a city to catch more passengers.....
- building complex junctions is somewhat messy, since it looks like you can superpose any track combination (at least I could not find any flat combination which is not allowed). Editing is a nightmare (I can never select the right section).
- track junctions have become bigger, but the distance between cities can still be very small, the scale was never realistic in TTDX, but this is getting even worse....
- same as RCT: when the track layout becomes more complex, it's VERY difficult to understand where you are building, I'd love to have 45 degrees rotation to be able to look in the direction of the track I'm building (possible with the diagonal track only, right now).
- it's not possible anymore to buy AI companies?! Demo limitation?
- I agree with the reliability-going-down thing, as commented by a lot of people....
- some reviewers commented on the "old-style" 2D graphics, but I personally find the game graphics to be really really nice.

The game pushes me to resume developement on my TT-like game, I see that there's still a lot of place for improvement in the genre

[Der_tolle_Emil]

Hi!

Tunnels are automatically started. It might be a bit confusing at first that a tunnel entry cannot be built at a slope like it was in ttdx. It is difficult to explain without any pictures.

I don't know the rct auto terraforming features but even so I do not think anything like that is there in locomotion. Raising land would cost much more than building bridges. And it would render the ability to build bridges heigher than just 1 unit a bit useless.

Industries do close sometimes, even if they produce a lot or get their needed goods regularly.

I do not need to comment on the rest of your post as they are true but they do not really bother me. In fact I am happy about them. Especially the "passengers with no destination". Transport Giant had that and it just sucks imho. Stations above cities may seem ridiculous if built too high, but there are many cities where there are actual stations above the ground. I like that feature. And I like the possibility to lay tracks just as I want to. Well I do not plan total chaos junctions but it is nice to know that I do not have to bother which curve to use to make the junction work - except for speed issued. Oh by the way, trains are limited to certain speeds on bridges and are never faster than their slowest wagon, those have speed limits too. As far as I can remember some passanger wagons are limited to 80 (but I am not sure)

Buying out another company is not possible anymore but there is 45° rotation. Hold the right mousebutton and use the wheel or just press Enter, either way works fine.

[103er-Fan]

Don't know those RCT terraforming functions....

The train is only as fast as its slowest vehicle. For example even if you have a 200 km/h locomotive, it won't reach this speed if you have a waggon in the train which is only allowed for 80. Just like it is in reality. Also curves and bridges slow their speeds down.

Yes, track editing can sometimes be a real PITA, especially when it comes to underground railways. There should be an option to turn more things transparent.

[metalangel]

- is there an "auto-terraform" switch for track building? Just like in RCT, landscaping can take ages. It would be nice to set a checkbox and have the game auto-landscape the tiles to allow the construction of the track (just like a tunnel is automatically started).

Nope. The design seems to intend you to use brick viaducts everywhere.

- is there some kind of speed limit in the demo? Even trains supposed to go faster than 80km/h have a top speed of 80km/h.

Each piece of rolling stock has a maximum speed - so a 90mph A3 will only go 60mph if it's pulling the old passenger carriages. This is a huge problem with the game, as not only does it mean some trains are never utilised to their full potential, but the selection of vehicles is limited (no high-speed mail cars, for example)

- do industries still close randomly even when they are serviced fully?

Yup. Coal mines run out of coal.

- same problems as RCT: being forced to build in real-time even when playing single-player and no undo feature (you can demolish, but it costs tons of money).

That's right - there is a bug if you have one of the save-load dialogues open that you can still build, but the patch will fix this.

- same economical system of TTDX: passengers/mail with no destination and unbalanced distribution of goods when multiple stations are serving the same industry.

This is also true - I don't randomly turn up at Cardiff and go to Newport instead of Paddington just because the Newport train turns up first. And yes, cargo still goes to the wrong stations or forces you to operate shuttles between stations supposedly servicing the same industry.

- I find ridiculous that you can build a "station in the sky" over a city to catch more passengers.....

This is on the one hand not uncommon (Heath High Level is 'in the sky', but not *that* high) but is again an abuse of the game engine - the AI loves brick viaducts, don't forget.

- building complex junctions is somewhat messy, since it looks like you can superpose any track combination (at least I could not find any flat combination which is not allowed). Editing is a nightmare (I can never select the right section).

Bingo. You can plonk tracks anywhere you like (almost) but because there's particular curves and shapes unlike TTDX's diagonals, you have to plan ahead when you build a big junction. There are a few good designs for these floating around showing what bits you build.

- track junctions have become bigger, but the distance between cities can still be very small, the scale was never realistic in TTDX, but this is getting even worse....

Absolutely. The trains are completely out of scale with the environment. What's worse, most will never reach their full speed on the tiny maps, I tested and proved the high speed trains with a prototypical consist need about a quarter to a third map's worth straight, flat, unobstructed track to reach full speed.

- same as RCT: when the track layout becomes more complex, it's VERY difficult to understand where you are building, I'd love to have 45 degrees rotation to be able to look in the direction of the track I'm building (possible with the diagonal track only, right now).

Sorry, no can do, your only hope is to either demolish what's blocking your view (far too easy by mistake!) or use the hopeless 'hide foreground tracks' option.

- it's not possible anymore to buy AI companies?! Demo limitation?

Nope. Game limitation. Most people on here hate the AI so much we've edited our favourite scenarios to play solo anyway.

- I agree with the reliability-going-down thing, as commented by a lot of people....

Yes, replacing 200 vehicles every year is borderline obsessive-compulsive madness.

- some reviewers commented on the "old-style" 2D graphics, but I personally find the game graphics to be really really nice.

Those reviewers are idiots - there's absolutely no need for 3D graphics in a game like this!

The game pushes me to resume developement on my TT-like game, I see that there's still a lot of place for improvement in the genre

Well, when it is suitable for a beta, you're bound to find a lot of willing testers here! Good luck!

[Roger]

It would be a nightmare if every passenger had a preferred destination. On the other hand, I miss the subsidies from TTDX that gave you an incentive for connecting certain routes.

One thing I hate is that a junction can look right, but trains won't use it because in fact in doesn't connect properly. This can be hard to spot and hard to fix.

[Yuffie]

It would be a nightmare if every passenger had a preferred destination. On the other hand, I miss the subsidies from TTDX that gave you an incentive for connecting certain routes.

Simutrans does just this and it makes the game more interesting: one big passenger station with buses delivering passengers to/from a lot of pickup points in the city. This is also VERY logical with airports (you could build the airport outside and create a hi-speed shuttle to/from the city).

One thing I hate is that a junction can look right, but trains won't use it because in fact in doesn't connect properly. This can be hard to spot and hard to fix.

Yes, I had the same problem. I'm used to TTDX complex layouts and I think it'll take some time to adapt to locomotion and not mess up the junctions.

[Born Acorn]

Simutrans does just this and it makes the game more interesting: one big passenger station with buses delivering passengers to/from a lot of pickup points in the city. This is also VERY logical with airports (you could build the airport outside and create a hi-speed shuttle to/from the city).

Its the number one reason I don't play simutrans, but rather Openttd

[Thomash]

- do industries still close randomly even when they are serviced fully?
The industries in medium difficulty scenario just close down INSANELY so I only use self-edit map with no industries closing.


- I find ridiculous that you can build a "station in the sky" over a city to catch more passengers.....
Why not build metro? (but another side, it's not that fun to view underground...)


- building complex junctions is somewhat messy, since it looks like you can superpose any track combination (at least I could not find any flat combination which is not allowed). Editing is a nightmare (I can never select the right section).
My major complain to junction is when I need to edit in a lower layer that the upper layer already built some tracks, I DO remove the upper tracks for clear judge. I just hope that CS would add a function to make specific layer become transparent...

And I hate the RCT-ish track construction. Why I can't pull a long track through a distant view like in TTD? I'm afraid I would crash my little poor mouse because of machine gun like clickingclickingclickingclicking.


- some reviewers commented on the "old-style" 2D graphics, but I personally find the game graphics to be really really nice.
thankfully I can play Loco in my old laptop.
But my final word as others, expecting a better construction interface and pathfinding AI.

[GurraJG]

And I hate the RCT-ish track construction. Why I can't pull a long track through a distant view like in TTD? I'm afraid I would crash my little poor mouse because of machine gun like clickingclickingclickingclicking.

I don't find the RCT type construction method annoying, mainly becasue I've played way to much RCT. But I do agree that an option that would make it possible to pull track like in TTD would be a nice feature, as long as the RCT way is also included.

[SpComb]

I'm considering buying LoMo, But I have very mixed feelings. One day, I am arranging to go to the PC store, the other I am cursing Chris Sawyer for his stupidity and lack of intrest/devotion. But that is something else. Having only played the demo, I can say that there are some good things, some bad. Building under cities is a definate no-no, but I like the fact that trains can't spontaneously turn around plus realistic stopping distances which makes me happy. It means that you can't just rip up track and replace juntions, and have to do it like in real life. The overtaking road vehicles is nice as well (with the express/local idea). However, not having played properly yet, I don't know the pains of bulding across long distances, or the reliability issues. It also forces you to have large, laid out junctions, but on a small map. The England scenario that comes with the Demo is a disaster. TTDP has its merits, but so does LoMo.

Now, don't ask me why I wrote this... I guess its my first impressions on LoMo. However, there are too many pointless discussions over what is good or not. How did it go? One man's (something) is another man's gold. I would personally love passangers with destinations. Well, listen to me trying to justify myself. The Wikipedia article on LoMo is woefully short...

[Train<In>Vain]

I'm considering buying LoMo, But I have very mixed feelings. One day, I am arranging to go to the PC store, the other I am cursing Chris Sawyer for his stupidity and lack of intrest/devotion. But that is something else. Having only played the demo, I can say that there are some good things, some bad. Building under cities is a definate no-no, but I like the fact that trains can't spontaneously turn around plus realistic stopping distances which makes me happy. It means that you can't just rip up track and replace juntions, and have to do it like in real life. The overtaking road vehicles is nice as well (with the express/local idea). However, not having played properly yet, I don't know the pains of bulding across long distances, or the reliability issues. It also forces you to have large, laid out junctions, but on a small map. The England scenario that comes with the Demo is a disaster. TTDP has its merits, but so does LoMo.

Now, don't ask me why I wrote this... I guess its my first impressions on LoMo. However, there are too many pointless discussions over what is good or not. How did it go? One man's (something) is another man's gold. I would personally love passangers with destinations. Well, listen to me trying to justify myself. The Wikipedia article on LoMo is woefully short...

Forget the demo. Buy the game and install the 2xReliability mod before playing. You won't regret it. Or maybe you will, if you spend too much time playing, which is too easy to do. This game is addictive, like TT was for me when I first got it.

Even with it's limitations, Lo'mo is a GREAT game. The business side of it is over-simplified, but it doesn't detract from building rail systems and trains. The possibility of building elevated rails and platforms in cities, plus TRAMS, makes everything else obsolete. You can forget about those crappy trucks and buses forever

[metalangel]

Traininvain, what's the point their being in the game if they're worthless? They weren't in TTD.

regarding Simutrans' passengers, it wasn't a nightmare at all, as passengers' destinations would always be another station on your network - they wouldn't turn up and expect to get to somewhere you hadn't linked, although this does mean the more places you do connect to, the more passengers you'll have.

What you do is build almost like in TTD/Lomo - trying to cover as much of the city with catchment radii. Then, you can look to see where people most want to go, and increase services on those routes. If everyone's turning up at Smeg Street Station and want to get to Palookaville, buy more trains. If people want to get to Palookaville West, consider even replacing the bus route with a local train line. Incredibly deep and not really something that should be *that* hard to implement in Lomo - if you're pre-apathy CS, that is.

[scrat]

And I hate the RCT-ish track construction. Why I can't pull a long track through a distant view like in TTD? I'm afraid I would crash my little poor mouse because of machine gun like clickingclickingclickingclicking.

I found an article on some other locomotion forum a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, I don't have the link to the article, but I can provide a link to the app download and attach my keyscript.

Basically, I've set it up in such a way that Numpad0 equals a click on the track build button. Just keep Numpad0 pressed and watch those long stretches of rails be laid almost quicker than the eye can see.

App link: http://www.autohotkey.com/

And attached is my script. Works like a charm.

[mijack]

How do you use it ? Do you have to put the .ini file in a specific directory ? The explanations given in the file are not very clear...

[Der_tolle_Emil]

regarding Simutrans' passengers, it wasn't a nightmare at all, as passengers' destinations would always be another station on your network - they wouldn't turn up and expect to get to somewhere you hadn't linked, although this does mean the more places you do connect to, the more passengers you'll have.

That sounds interesting. I do not know this game but I bought Transport Giant and there passengers also wanted certain routes and did not just take the first train that entered a station. But they wanted to go to cities that you had not even built any station yet which is really dumb because you can only build a single network. You cannot just build two stations and connect them, your third station has to be connected to your existing network in some way. That made it quite impossible to build the routes the citizens demanded.

Anyway, I think it would give a nice challange to say have 55 trains go to a single station in town - or how many cities there may be, I think the scenario editor's standard is 55. Would be a bit crowded at the station too because 500 passengers wanting to go to 50 different towns leaves 10 passengers per train, which is kind of pointless. Although you could pick up other passengers at another town to fill it up.

It would be kind of fun to had such an option in the game altough I seriously doubt that it work with Locomotion.

Edit: About the Numpad 0 thing: I loved it that you could select which piece of track to build with your keyboard's 1-9 keys in TTDX. It would be nice if that was implemented in loco too as it really sped up building tracks. I kind of miss that.

[Hajo]

regarding Simutrans' passengers, it wasn't a nightmare at all, as passengers' destinations would always be another station on your network - they wouldn't turn up and expect to get to somewhere you hadn't linked, although this does mean the more places you do connect to, the more passengers you'll have.

That sounds interesting. I do not know this game but I bought Transport Giant and there passengers also wanted certain routes and did not just take the first train that entered a station.

If you want to take a look, this is the Simutrans homepage:
http://www.simutrans.de

There is a forum that has latest development snapshots for download and a lot of talk around Simutrans:
http://www.simugraph.com/forum

And even this forum has a section about Simutrans
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=22

The Simutrans WIKI, with some helpful information:
http://www.hajo.simutrans.com/pmwiki/pm ... n/HomePage

And last but not least the Simutrans tips website:
http://www.simutrans-tips.com/en/index.php

Opinions on Simutrans are very divided. As you've ssen in former messages of this thread some people don't like it at all. Some others say it's the best transport sim game ever.

Take a look and try yourself.

[scrat]

How do you use it ? Do you have to put the .ini file in a specific directory ? The explanations given in the file are not very clear...

autohotkey.ini goes in...

The root of the Autohotkey folder. (On my pc, that's c:\program files\autohotkey\)

Duh.

[Der_tolle_Emil]

regarding Simutrans' passengers, it wasn't a nightmare at all, as passengers' destinations would always be another station on your network - they wouldn't turn up and expect to get to somewhere you hadn't linked, although this does mean the more places you do connect to, the more passengers you'll have.

That sounds interesting. I do not know this game but I bought Transport Giant and there passengers also wanted certain routes and did not just take the first train that entered a station.

If you want to take a look, this is the Simutrans homepage:
http://www.simutrans.de

There is a forum that has latest development snapshots for download and a lot of talk around Simutrans:
http://www.simugraph.com/forum

And even this forum has a section about Simutrans
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=22

The Simutrans WIKI, with some helpful information:
http://www.hajo.simutrans.com/pmwiki/pm ... n/HomePage

And last but not least the Simutrans tips website:
http://www.simutrans-tips.com/en/index.php

Opinions on Simutrans are very divided. As you've ssen in former messages of this thread some people don't like it at all. Some others say it's the best transport sim game ever.

Take a look and try yourself.

I just saw the very fist screenshot on the front page and I think I'm in love Also there is a day/night cycle (or something like that) and the most important - winter scenario. I haven't met a game yet I could resist if it had some sort of snowy environment.

Seriously, it looks nice. Looks like it really could carry on the original TT spirit. And it's 2d, which I appreciate a lot. I think I'll give it a try once I'm fed up with Locomotion. Until that I try to enjoy loco as much as possible. And again there is OpenTTD which seems like a lot of fun because me and my friends always missed 3 player multiplayer - with larger maps I think the next holidays are gonna be a lot of fun.

[Hajo]

I think I have some bad news for you. Simutrans may look similar to TTD but it plays very differently. This is one of the reasons why many TTD players don't like it. They try to play it like TTD, then run into problems and then conclude it's crap that doesn't work.

The most notable differences are the signalling system and train pathfinding. Also the fact that passengers, mail and also freight has destinations, you can't carry them just anywhere.

The winter scenario hasn't been updated since two years or more.

We've been working on a new graphics set with bigger more detailed images for the summer scenario:

There is a gallery of screenshots of the new image set:
http://www.simutrans-tips.com/de/screenshots.php

Those screenshots are several months old, the current set looks even better.

The "128x128 pixel object set" homepage:
http://128.simutrans.com


The new 128x128 pixel object set is nearing completion, so maybe the winter scenario will be updated again.

[Tyyppi]

Well, that Simutrans certainly looks interesting. Must at least try it.