Two wishes

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accipiter2000
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Two wishes

Post by accipiter2000 »

Two wishes.
One is to add a removable switch for the transmitter, where the removal cost could be quite high, but this would mean I wouldn't have to resort to cheating mode.
The other is to introduce two-way exit train depot, similar to how ship depot operate.
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Re: Two wishes

Post by kamnet »

accipiter2000 wrote: 09 Mar 2024 04:12 One is to add a removable switch for the transmitter, where the removal cost could be quite high, but this would mean I wouldn't have to resort to cheating mode.
"Cheating mode" is a bit of a misnomer, and for that in OpenTTD 14 you will not only find that this has now been renamed to the more appropriate "Sandbox Options", but it is accessible within the game from the "Options and Setting" button instead of hidden behind a hotkey. There's nothing cheating about enabling the Magic Bulldozer to remove objects that the original game never intended but still annoys the crap out of players.

In addition, to address the unpleasantness of the the transmitters, there are a couple of NewGRFs that change the transmitter's appearance:

1. I created Rock Replacement for Transmitter which does what it says on the label.

2. The above is also incorporated as a parameter in OpenGFX+ Landscape

3. The former also inspired the creation of Transmitter by Date, which changes the transmitter into a more period-appropriate looking object depending on the date.
The other is to introduce two-way exit train depot, similar to how ship depot operate.
This isn't currently available in OpenTTD 14, but it available as a feature of the JGR Patch Pack. If you're an experienced OpenTTD player, this modified version of the game offers many advanced features and "quality of life" upgrades, although saved games, multiplayer games and scenarios created with JGRPP are not compatible with the stock OpenTTD client.
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TheDarkGiganotosaur
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Re: Two wishes

Post by TheDarkGiganotosaur »

kamnet wrote: 09 Mar 2024 07:18"Cheating mode" is a bit of a misnomer, and for that in OpenTTD 14 you will not only find that this has now been renamed to the more appropriate "Sandbox Options", but it is accessible within the game from the "Options and Setting" button instead of hidden behind a hotkey. There's nothing cheating about enabling the Magic Bulldozer to remove objects that the original game never intended but still annoys the crap out of players.
With all due respect, using the "Sandbox Options" still counts as cheating and its name replacement seems a little bit misleading. Besides... and what I meant with "misleading", is that it STILL stops the players from appearing in the high score screen when reaching the game-ending year--implying that such players have cheated! But on the other hand, I guess that's pretty fair (because cheating spoils the fun), so I humbly digress. Image
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audigex
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Re: Two wishes

Post by audigex »

TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote: 09 Mar 2024 11:35
kamnet wrote: 09 Mar 2024 07:18"Cheating mode" is a bit of a misnomer, and for that in OpenTTD 14 you will not only find that this has now been renamed to the more appropriate "Sandbox Options", but it is accessible within the game from the "Options and Setting" button instead of hidden behind a hotkey. There's nothing cheating about enabling the Magic Bulldozer to remove objects that the original game never intended but still annoys the crap out of players.
With all due respect, using the "Sandbox Options" still counts as cheating and its name replacement seems a little bit misleading. Besides... and what I meant with "misleading", is that it STILL stops the players from appearing in the high score screen when reaching the game-ending year--implying that such players have cheated! But on the other hand, I guess that's pretty fair (because cheating spoils the fun), so I humbly digress. Image
There's no such thing as "cheating" in a non-competitive game, really... the entire game is a sandbox and half of the settings options could be considered "cheats"... we allow people to disable breakdowns and natural disasters, for example, and using many GRFs is basically cheating too. Along with using features that weren't even in original TTD

I agree that perhaps the high score table should be split into separate "Sandbox" and "Vanilla" tabs to be more reflective of this
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Re: Two wishes

Post by TheDarkGiganotosaur »

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12There's no such thing as "cheating" in a non-competitive game, really...
Then explain why the game still stops the players from appearing in the high score screen after using the "Sandbox Options"? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me... competitive or not. If it's no longer considered "cheating", then don't punish the players by disabling the ability to appear in the high score screen when the game reaches the ending year. Or at least put a clear warning message to let the players know, especially newbies.
audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12the entire game is a sandbox
The game is a transport simulation--it's all about transporting anything anywhere for big bucks via road, rail, water, and air vehicles. Nothing more, nothing less.
audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12and half of the settings options could be considered "cheats"... we allow people to disable breakdowns and natural disasters, for example, and using many GRFs is basically cheating too. Along with using features that weren't even in original TTD
Let's just agree to disagree. OpenTTD is an extremely vast improvement over the original TTD. Yes, TTD was great during its time, and I did play it so many times via DOSBox... but TTD was insanely superseeded by OpenTTD--TTD has so many flaws and dire limitations whereas OpenTTD provides many fixes, vast enhancements, much lesser limitations, and makes it a thousand times better than TTD. Oh, and as for disasters, it can also be disabled in the old TTD (via "Difficult settings").

Sandbox (or cheats, as it was once called), I don't use them--they really spoil the fun, and should only be used for debugging purposes, but that's just my opinion.

Interpreting the NewGRF usage as cheating would be remotely unfair, don't you think? I mean, the original TTD has much fewer vehicles (especially monorail and maglev) and industries... and thanks to many highly talented people here who created many vehicle and industry sets, there's a reason to make OpenTTD much more enjoyable for many years to come. Oh, and not to mention other NewGRFs that can do many useful things... like giving Toyland landscape a nice "makeover", for example.
audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12I agree that perhaps the high score table should be split into separate "Sandbox" and "Vanilla" tabs to be more reflective of this
I guess that would suffice as a solution to this issue.
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Re: Two wishes

Post by audigex »

The game is 30 years old, let's not act like every decision made in 1992-1993 stands today

Do you use GRFs? They were not part of the original game

Things change. If you don't want to use the sandbox options then don't, but don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you
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Re: Two wishes

Post by TheDarkGiganotosaur »

Let's not derail the thread with long debates--I was ONLY pointing out an issue with the "Sandbox Options" regarding ONLY the "players not showing up in the high score screen after its usage" part... and I already said all I needed to, so let's agree to disagree and be on our way.

But since you insist, let's continue, shall we?Image
audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50The game is 30 years old, let's not act like every decision made in 1992-1993 stands today
Yes, and...? We're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD. Let's leave the past into the past and focus on the present and the future.

Also, I'm not acting anything nor I'm forcing anyone to do things my way... I'm just pointing things out, and then it'll be up for the developers to decide what to do about them, not me. If it's possible, cool... if not, fine. Please don't put words into my mouth.
audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50Do you use GRFs? They were not part of the original game
Again, we're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD! As for whoever uses NewGRFs, it's up for the players to decide how they want to play the game, original or not. To each their own.
audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50Things change. If you don't want to use the sandbox options then don't, but don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you
OpenTTD changes, not TTD. So once again, we're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD. I'm not judging nor I'd criticize everyone's gameplay preferences--people are totally free to play the game as they see fit... and like I said, to each their own. Again, don't put words into my mouth.

Lastly... and just to be clear, I'm all for benefiting EVERYONE. Whaddaya think I am? Selfish?Image
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Re: Two wishes

Post by LaChupacabra »

kamnet wrote: 09 Mar 2024 07:18 In addition, to address the unpleasantness of the the transmitters, there are a couple of NewGRFs that change the transmitter's appearance:
It's not about the appearance of the transmitters, but that they make it difficult to build freely, and partly that, in contrast, when the player can freely demolish an entire city, not being able to remove a small transmitter makes no sense.
audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12 There's no such thing as "cheating" in a non-competitive game, really... the entire game is a sandbox and half of the settings options could be considered "cheats"... we allow people to disable breakdowns and natural disasters, for example, and using many GRFs is basically cheating too. Along with using features that weren't even in original TTD
First of all, cheating is not about setting the rules of the game (choosing newGRF, settings), but it can be about changing these rules during the game (including singleplayer / with AI) and creating an unfair advantage. If you are not interested in the game economy and competition or challenges in your games, then changing any settings will probably not be cheating, and you are right here. But, as you said so well, don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you. This game is not (purely) a sandbox. It is not also nothing more and nothing less than a simulator. There are many ways to play this game, not just one or two.

Regarding the sandbox options window, changing the name was an illusory change and did not change the most important thing, i.e. how the game perceives these options and, as TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote, a player who uses these options is still ultimately treated as a cheater. The name change was made in good faith, but the result of it and several other changes is that the settings are now terribly inconsistent. Image

Options that clearly should have been included in the cheat window/sandbox options, such as "Infinite money" or "permissive local authority", which allows you to demolish entire cities with impunity, are among the regular settings. Meanwhile, options that never gave any particular advantage, such as crossing tunnels, changing the maximum height of the map (isn't this some sort of fossil?), ability to demolish transmitters and unsupported enterprises (for a sufficiently high fee), are still there or have even been given the title of cheating, such as no plane crashes, although previously for years it was one of the most popular regular game options...

I am not against the cheat window or the sandbox option, I don't want it removed, I believe that some options that significantly facilitate the gameplay should have the status of "forbidden". However, I believe that tidying up and a more logical division of these options are needed.
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Re: Two wishes

Post by TheDarkGiganotosaur »

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12But, as you said so well, don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you.
Yes, but I kinda resent that such comment was directed at ME. Besides, the words "I humbly digress" and "that's just my opinion" have a LOGICAL meaning to them--they ain't there just for show, therefore I didn't come here making demands nor discriminating people's gameplay preferences nor telling everyone how the game should be played, et cetera... and I'm NOT here to offend anyone (if I did, I apologize). Heck, I never said such things! Always talking about TTD this and TTD that when I was simply and specifically referring to OpenTTD... Image

Although I'm a nice person and have shown exemplary conduct here, I won't tolerate false claims about me and ill-reasoned remarks. Just be nice... Image
LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12Regarding the sandbox options window, changing the name was an illusory change and did not change the most important thing, i.e. how the game perceives these options and, as TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote, a player who uses these options is still ultimately treated as a cheater. The name change was made in good faith, but the result of it and several other changes is that the settings are now terribly inconsistent. Image
Yup, my thoughts exactly... and also the SOLE reason why I came to this thread in the first place--and especially because of the high score screen issue. No additional (and redundant) discussion was needed, but it all happened just because I simply and harmlessly spoke my mind... Image
LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12Options that clearly should have been included in the cheat window/sandbox options, such as "Infinite money" or "permissive local authority", which allows you to demolish entire cities with impunity, are among the regular settings. Meanwhile, options that never gave any particular advantage, such as crossing tunnels, changing the maximum height of the map (isn't this some sort of fossil?), ability to demolish transmitters and unsupported enterprises (for a sufficiently high fee), are still there or have even been given the title of cheating, such as no plane crashes, although previously for years it was one of the most popular regular game options...
Why not ask audigex if any of those "Godlike" (sandboxing/cheating) features were in the "original game" as well? Image

On second thought, don't... it was only a rhetorical question. Sheesh...Image
LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12I am not against the cheat window or the sandbox option, I don't want it removed, I believe that some options that significantly facilitate the gameplay should have the status of "forbidden". However, I believe that tidying up and a more logical division of these options are needed.
Quoted for truth. Image
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