OpenSFX is not open! (quest for a libre sound pack)

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OpenSFX is not open! (quest for a libre sound pack)

Post by Wuzzy » 18 Aug 2019 19:12

:!: IMPORTANT EDIT 30 AUG 2019: This thread now basically has become a thread with the task to fully liberate OpenSFX. See my later posts for information about license status on the sounds, and progress reports.

-----------------

Hey, I wonder if this is just an oversight or not, but I've got bad news for you:

OpenSFX is not actually “open” (in the sense of “open source” / “free sotware”). :( Why?

Because the license is CC Sampling Plus 1.0. This is an ancient license that is so bad, that even Creative Commens themselves retracted it. They no longer promote this license, they actively discourage people from using it.

This license is considered non-free because it's incompatible with open source ideals. Practically speaking, it includes an unfair restriction:
You may not use this work to advertise for or promote anything but the work you create from it.
That's not the spirit of open source. People should be free to use the software (OK, the sounds in this case) for anything they like. Restricting advertisement is clearly unfair. I don't even know a logical reason why such a restriction is even desirable. It doesn't make sense. In either case, this license cannot be considered an “open source license”.

I thought I should bring this to your attention because the game is called OpenTTD and the sound pack is OpenSFX. :)

I really hope this license was just a mistake and you can agree to change the license to an actual libre license. Well, what license should be used? Well, any generally-accepted free software/free culture license would do. I would recommend any of the following:

- CC BY-SA 4.0
- CC BY 4.0
- CC0
Last edited by Wuzzy on 30 Aug 2019 15:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by kamnet » 18 Aug 2019 19:38

OpenSFX is just a name. The CC Plus license is used because the sound clips themselves are from a library which uses CC Plus for the license. We are not able to choose a different license unless you want to do the work of replacing all the sounds with ones licensed in another manner.

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by Wuzzy » 18 Aug 2019 20:27

From which library did the sounds come from?

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by Wuzzy » 18 Aug 2019 23:13

Alright … You don't need to answer the previous question.

I have just gone through the credits list and researched every single sound. It turns out most sounds come from freesound.org, a few from tt-forums.net forum members and OpenTTD people, and a few sounds are from pdsounds.net.

So. First of all. It is not true that it's mostly Sampling Plus. Thankfully.

Of the freesound.org sounds, the majority of sounds is actually libre now, either CC BY or CC0. Only a handful of sounds are still Sampling Plus. A couple of sounds are under CC BY-NC, however. My guess is that these sounds once were all under Sampling Plus back in the day, long before Creative Commons retired said license. And that freesound.org tried to push their users away from Sampling Plus as a result and most users actually agreed. Whatever, that doesn't matter now. :P

Now for the hard, cold FACTS!
The following text are the credits taken from readme.ptxt, except I annotated each file with the license I found on the corresponding website. I simply entered the file name and user name into the search bar. But I wasn't able to find a license for every sound.

Code: Select all

 - "1sticky8" from "freesound.org"
    * Dumpster_Diving.wav (CC0)
 - "acclivity" from "freesound.org"
    * ChugChugWooHoo.mp3 (CC BY-NC 3.0)
    * TwoCows.wav (CC BY-NC 3.0)
 - "AGFX" from "freesound.org"
    * Squeeky ball Toy_1.L.wav (CC0)
 - "Aldor" from "pdsounds.org"
    * L'ascenseur - Elevator (Public Domain)
 - "alexrigg" from "freesound.org"
    * crash_treefall_SE.mp3 (UNKNOWN LICENSE)
 - "Anton" from "freesound.org"
    * wind1.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "Benboncan" from "freesound.org"
    * Circular saw crosscutting.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "benhillyard" from "freesound.org"
    * Vocal_Splat_08.wav (CC BY-NC 3.0)
 - "Bidone" from "freesound.org"
    * Affen schreit.mp3 (CC0)
 - "cats2009" from "freesound.org"
    * blue_angels.wav (CC Sampling Plus 1.0)
 - "cfork" from "freesound.org"
    * boing_raw.aif (CC BY 3.0)
 - "conny" from "freesound.org"
    * DATSUN_T.wav (CC Sampling Plus 1.0)
 - David R Barnes ("earthcalling") from "pdsounds.org"
    * Corner of a sheep field in summer (Public Domain)
 - "ddub" from "freesound.org"
    * concorde.mp3 (CC Sampling Plus 1.0)
 - Derek Murphy ("robbiesurp" at "freesound.org")
    * wfl5.5_snap.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "www.digifishmusic.com" ("digifishmusic" at "freesound.org")
    * Passenger jet departs 2.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "dobroide" from "freesound.org"
    * 20060419.horse.neigh.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - Elaine Miller ("Miselaineous" at "freesound.org")
    * elaine-growl.wav (CC Sampling Plus 1.0)
 - "Goldy-sama" from "freesound.org"
    * bulle.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "Halleck" from "freesound.org"
    * JacobsLadderLong2.flac (CC BY 3.0)
 - "han1" from "freesound.org"
    * Car start and drive.mp3 (CC BY 3.0)
    * claxon.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "HerbertBoland" from "freesound.org"
    * MouthPop.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - huha from "tt-forums.net"
    * maglev_sound_2.wav (UNKNOWN LICENSE)
 - "icmusic" from "freesound.org"
    * london bus approaches & leaves.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - Janis Lukss ("Pendrokar" at "wiki.openttd.org")
    * Own recordings/mixes (UNKNOWN LICENSE)
 - "jascha" from "freesound.org"
    * kick_1.wav (CC BY-NC 3.0)
 - "JFBSAUVE" from "freesound.org"
    * CHAINSAW.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - Jillian Callahan ("JillianCallahan" at "freesound.org")
    * generic prop_start(8.395).wav (CC Sampling Plus 1.0)
 - "joedeshon" from "freesound.org"
    * slide_whistle_down_fast_01.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "krillion" from "freesound.org"
    * flyby.mp3 (CC Sampling Plus 1.0)
 - "l0calh05t" from "freesound.org"
    * in the smithy 2.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "Leady" from "freesound.org"
    * Dropping a large gun.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - Leon Milo ("milo" at "freesound.org")
    * msfinmarken_Bergen.aif (CC BY 3.0)
    * ship2_bergen.aif (CC BY 3.0)
 - lonemonk from "freesound.org"
    * Approx 850 - Enthusiast Audience.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "lorenzosu" from "freesound.org"
    * helicopterRaw_16sec.wav (CC BY-NC 3.0)
 - "man" from "freesound.org"
    * swosh.aif (CC BY 3.0)
 - "Marec" from "freesound.org"
    * metro.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "Matias.Reccius" from "freesound.org"
    * crashB.wav (CC0)
 - "Necrosensual" from "freesound.org"
    * aluminum02.wav (CC0)
 - "NoiseCollector" from "freesound.org"
    * CRASH2.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "patchen" from "freesound.org"
    * Locomotive 1 Distant horn.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "Pooleside" from "freesound.org"
    * nnb04_maxed.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - Remko Bijker ("Rubidium" at "dev.openttdcoop.org")
    * Own work
 - Richard Frohlich ("FreqMan" at "freesound.org")
    * whoosh06.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - Robert Gacek ("Robinhood76" at "freesound.org")
    * 01063 roadworks driller.wav (CC BY-NC 3.0)
 - "roscoetoon" from "freesound.org"
    * rr_cross5.wav (CC BY 3.0)
    * t_start1.mp3 (CC BY 3.0)
 - "Q.K." from "freesound.org"
    * Metal_03.wav (CC0)
 - "sagetyrtle" from "freesound.org"
    * crash.wav (CC0)
 - "saphix" from "freesound.org"
    * file0375.mp3 (CC0)
 - "scuola_rocca_di_botte" from "freesound.org"
    * Manuel Tarquini.wav (CC Sampling Plus 1.0)
 - "Sedi" from "freesound.org"
    * ae_51_m.wav (CC BY-NC 3.0)
 - "simon.rue" from "freesound.org"
    * Boink_v3.wav (CC0)
 - "SlykMrByches" from "freesound.org"
    * splattt.mp3 (CC0)
 - "Stickinthemud" from "freesound.org"
    * Bike Horn double toot.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "suonho" from "freesound.org"
    * ELEMENTS_WATER_02_Phasin-bubbles.wav (CC BY 3.0)
 - "tigersound" from "freesound.org"
    * bird tweet.aif (CC BY-NC 3.0)
    * bird tweet 4.aif (CC BY-NC 3.0)
 - Timo A. Hummel ("Felicitus" at "dev.openttdcoop.org")
    * Own work (UNKNOWN LICENSE)
 - Tom Haigh ("audible-edge" at "freesound.org")
    * Nissan Maxima burnout (04-25-2009).wav (CC0)
 - "VEXST" from "freesound.org"
    * Snare 4.wav (CC BY 3.0)
I have messaged (almost) every single author of a sound with a non-free or unknown license and basically requested them to reconsider their license choice. Let's see how many will reply. :)

Anyways, it sounds like good news to me. So if we were to “liberate” OpenSFX, we apparently don't have to throw away all of the sounds and start from zero, as you can clearly see, many are CC0 or CC BY. We would probably have to throw away some of the sounds, unless the impossible happens and literally every author decides to release their sounds under a libre license.

If there's any sound that gets “liberated” in the process, I will let you know.

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by ALEXbr » 18 Aug 2019 23:28

All these sounds with more permissive version were edited together by some guys that licensed their work under CC Sampling.

I did something like a new sound set from scratch, under a permissive license (the AltSFX thing in my signature). Still a lot to be polished, but yeah...
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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by Wuzzy » 19 Aug 2019 09:23

All these sounds with more permissive version were edited together by some guys that licensed their work under CC Sampling.
So the sounds were originally libre and then got locked down? Oh FFS! :o

Anyway.
Am I right in assuming that OpenSFX is very old and was finished in a time where Creative Commons did not yet discourage CC Sampling / CC Sampling Plus yet? So the authors simply fully believed that CC Sampling (Plus) is an “open” license? This seems to be the reason …

Anyway, is it possible to reach out to these editors or have they already disappeared into nothingness?

AltSFX is a nice project, I'll look at it. Thanks! :)

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by ALEXbr » 19 Aug 2019 09:57

So the authors simply fully believed that CC Sampling (Plus) is an “open” license?
AFAIK, the authors didn't want to allow commercial usage of their work, so they chose CC Sampling as their license.
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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by planetmaker » 19 Aug 2019 10:04

Yes, Wuzzy, you are right. The CC-1-Sampling Plus license was not my (first) choice and it is not the same as OpenTTD and the other base sets use.

At the time, years ago, when I (with help from Rubidium and others) created OpenSFX, I was hard-pressed to find any suitable sound clips at all, let alone sound clips for *all* sound effects the game needs and which I was allowed to use and (re-)publish. As such I had to choose a license under which I could accomodate the sound effects I found. The license choice thus was no mistake, but a compromise: a sound set with that license was/is better than no sound set at all. The readme has a list of all sound files, their authors and the source I obtained it from, and even more detailed in the source repository itself: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenSFX/blob ... pensfx.sfo The problem was not to find some sound files which were free(er), but to find a sound file for each and every sound effect which met some common license term. I'm sure the situation changed in the last 10 years and meanwhile it might be possible to come up with a sound set with a more permissible license.

Anyone is invited to provide a truely-free sound set. Additionally I shall be more than happy to grant commit access to anyone who wants to remedy the situation and improve OpenSFX with sounds so that it can be published under a GPL or similarily permissive license.

Cheers,
planetmaker

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by Wuzzy » 19 Aug 2019 11:10

So have all the sounds been heavily processed?
Or are there sounds which have been used verbatim and there's just a different license slapped on it?

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by ALEXbr » 19 Aug 2019 11:18

They must've been at least a little bit processed, otherwise a new license couldn't be put (at least theoretically)
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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by Wuzzy » 19 Aug 2019 11:31

No, this is wrong. On a CC BY'ed work, you can literally copy the work verbatim and slap a new license on it, as long you comply with the original CC BY license and give credit. CC BY does not demand changes to the work. But IANAL.

Anyway, that doesn't really answer my question. So do you know if the OpenSFX sounds have been processed or did you just guess? ;) Please only facts, please. :P

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by orudge » 19 Aug 2019 14:54

You'll probably need to check the links from this post, and the history of wiki pages, DevZone issues, etc, to track down any information on that.

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by planetmaker » 19 Aug 2019 16:11

Without looking up anything anywhere, just from the back of my memory: Rubidium did a lot of post-processing on many of the sound snippets which includes conversion from their original formats to the one needed for OpenTTD consumption, as well as adjustments to sound volume and trimming of length where appropriate.

Whether you consider that "heavily processed" is another matter. We listened to them and considered the sound appropriate. Then we made it fit in volume and length to what we needed.

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Re: OpenSFX is not open!

Post by audigex » 27 Aug 2019 10:52

kamnet wrote:
18 Aug 2019 19:38
OpenSFX is just a name
I'd argue that in the OSS community, it isn't. People (rightly) assume that Open means FOSS and a "proper" open source license. And within OpenTTD, I'd absolutely assume that OpenXYZ sub-projects or related projects are as open as OpenTTD itself, like OpenGFX etc

I know that possibly sounds like splitting hairs, but names are important. FreeSFX or a similar name would do a better job of differentiating from OpenGFX or OpenTTD itself
Jon

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Status report

Post by Wuzzy » 30 Aug 2019 13:47

Alright, I have some good news! As promised, I have written a TON of private messages to ALL authors of sounds with non-free license terms. Now I've gotten the first replies regarding my requests for liberation. The sound file names in this post are the file names on freesound.org, which are also mentioned in the OpenSFX credits files.

01063 roadworks driller.wav (by Robinhood76)

:arrow: STATUS: INFORMAL PERMISSION GOTTEN, PUBLIC LICENSE STILL CC BY-NC 3.0
:link: https://freesound.org/people/Robinhood76/sounds/73623/
Robinhood76 wrote: Hello!
You ask for permission to use that commercially and you get it :)
This is an explicit permission for the OpenTTD project. However, I think that's not good enough for OpenTTD standards, isn't it? In the reply I got there was no indication we can also release this sound under a libre license.

helicopterRaw_16sec.wav (by lorenzosu)

:arrow: STATUS: CC BY-SA 4.0
:arrow: LINK: https://archive.org/details/helicopterRaw_16sec

Note: This is also posted on freesound.org.
lorenzosu wrote:You can find the same sound licenced under CC BY-SA 4.0 here at archive.org

ae_51_m.wav (by Sedi)

:arrow: STATUS: CC BY 4.0 (license changed after request)
:arrow: LINK: https://freesound.org/people/Sedi/sounds/70899/

ChugChugWooHoo.mp3 (by acclivity)
:arrow: STATUS: PERMISSION DENIED

TwoCows.wav (by acclivity)
:arrow: STATUS: PERMISSION DENIED

kick_1.wav (by jascha)

:arrow: STATUS: CC BY 3.0 (license changed after request)
:arrow: LINK: https://freesound.org/people/jascha/sounds/2837/

Sounds by Pendrokar (a tt-forums.net user)

:arrow: STATUS: ?????????

It's … it's confusing … I honestly have no idea which sounds are “safe” to use and which aren't. And it seems not even pendrokar knows it. :D I got pointed to https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Sound_E ... ldid=34839 but this is an ancient page, many sounds are not even in the latest version. I wish Pendrokar had more information, but it seems Pendrokar is unable to. :-/ I'm afraid we need to find replacements for those.

Wrapping up

I've got no replies for the other sounds yet.
I hope this will make liberating OpenSFX a little easier. It's not much, but it's a start.

:)

I also wish all the best of luck for the AltSFX project (thanks for pointing me towards it!). It seems to be much closer to being a complete high-quality libre soundpack than OpenSFX. Will the core devs consider swithing to AltSFX if this project is finalized? :?:

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Re: OpenSFX is not open! (quest for a libre sound pack)

Post by L. Spooner Inc » 01 Sep 2019 01:42

It's probably easier just to overthrow capitalism and smash propertarianism, convert the West into a gift economy, and end the very concept of copyright.

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Re: OpenSFX is not open! (quest for a libre sound pack)

Post by Expresso » 01 Sep 2019 09:24

L. Spooner Inc wrote:
01 Sep 2019 01:42
It's probably easier just to overthrow capitalism and smash propertarianism, convert the West into a gift economy, and end the very concept of copyright.
Yesss, let's do that! It's not like we won't encounter any resistance. Our openttd seduction powers are too great! Eventually we'll get everybody hooked on openttd!

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