BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

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Borg
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Well, its simple. I just divide stored cargo by 250 so when I hit 6000 cargo stored
we can go 100% production (1-24 steps).
E1 is action to decrement production
D1 is action to increment production (1 cargo, it does additional checks like ratings)
D2 is action like D1 but for 2 cargos

Code: Select all

// Monthly production update for Sawmill and Oil Refinery
82 * 39		02 0A 29 85 40 20 FF FF 08 1A 20 \w250 00 1A 20 \w1 13
		7C 00 00 FF 00 02
		E1 00 00 00 00 00
		D1 00 02 00 02 00
		00 80

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3iff
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by 3iff »

It does work, not in the same sense as BSPI does as I can't tell how it actually functions...but I have something to look at now.

As for a release...definitely not yet as I'm still making lots of changes. It's WAY different from the last release.
I'll see how things go.

Wow, that nfo code is just so much gibberish...it gives me a headache just trying to translate it...(but that's my problem!)

Anyway, my approximation of how it works is good enough for my purposes. Thanks for the idea.

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by busface »

Hi. I just wanted to show my appreciation for this industry NewGRF. I became aware of it via LugnutsK's current (as of Nov. 2019) let's play series (https://youtu.be/oF1Yvhkz0eo). I like FIRS Basic (Extreme is just too much) but this has become my new favourite.

Things I like about it:
1. It adds a level of complexity above vanilla without overwhelming a relative novice like me.
2. The power requirement means I have to think strategically about starting locations (towns with steel mill, factories, etc. and power plants are tough to find on my preferred 512x512 with low towns and industries selected, so you have to trade off).
3. The valuables requirement makes towns and town sizes relevant even if you don't intend to transport passengers. Towns can seem too irrelevant when I play industry-only games otherwise, usually just serving as goods-dumps — now I have to string them together too.
4. The power/banks requirement means industry growth feels organic and it also makes money somewhat more relevant past the early game as you end up having to invest in power stations and sometimes banks in order to "unlock" parts of the map that lack them. (In fact, I may use the BaseCost mod to increase the cost of these industries to $10–20m or so, as $1m is still a little cheap)

It's just a really nice balance for the way I like to play. Are there any current plans to develop it? If so, what might you add?

Borg
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Glad to hear it :)
Well, I like vanilla OpenTTD very much, but lack of complexity was an issue
after many years of playing. Thats why this GRF has born.

Do you use bit0 flag as well? On my server I play with GS that disables industry respawning.
There is initial 25 years period where industries are rebuild. After that you need to take care
of them yourself by building or prospecting. So makes game even more fun.

As for development... Well, I really like it. I also dont have any idea currently how to extend it and
dont break the balance in the same time. For now, it looks kinda perfect to me :)

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busface
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by busface »

I don't actually, I play with parameter 1: 6 so just the power (bit1) and valuables (bit2) requirements (same as LugnutsK). To be honest, I didn't know what "industries have reserves" actually means (how long until they run out of reserves? Can I affect how long it lasts?), so I avoided it :)

Borg
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Its random, decided on extractive (coal, ore, oil) industry spawn.
Value of reserves is between 24k - 286k. Now, if you start moving cargo from
them, its substracted from reserves. Once reach zero, industry announces closure.
200k+ reserves can last a lot, depending how fast you move cargo out of them.
Lets assume 300 units per month avarage:
200000 / 300 = around 55 years.

When playing with that bit set, every extractive industry have extra text:
Estimated reserves: <N>k

So, you can plan ahead if some critical mine is soon going out of business :)

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Hazzard »

Hey Borg, is there a specific ratio for iron ore vs coal for the steel mill?

Borg
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Yeah, 2:1. So, 10t Iron Ore + 5t Coal = 10t Steel.
Power Station also burn coal in 5t intervals.
Max Burn rates for small, medium, large Power Station: 60,90,120 tons of coal.

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Comm Cody
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Comm Cody »

what's the differences between BSPI and the X2025 grfs?
Something goes here, hell if I know.

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

X2025.grf just contains new (replaces other loco) 'X2025' (Electric) loco.
It can additionally merge maglev into monorail via bit0 of Param1.

I updated first post, so people do not get confused.
Those GRFs are not related to each other. You can use both or just one of them.

mrkastan
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by mrkastan »

Borg wrote:
04 Nov 2019 17:57
As for development... Well, I really like it. I also dont have any idea currently how to extend it and
dont break the balance in the same time. For now, it looks kinda perfect to me :)
Hi there,
I do like your mod as well, it is just perfect in sense of keeping the game as vanilla as possible with just right amount of complexity on top of it. My question would be if you plan to extend it throughout other biomes too (with sub-arctic in my mind)?

And maybe one suggestion, just based on feeling, really. As it is now, banks feel bit separated from the whole supply chain right now. I could imagine cities require goods in order for them to grow (in a same way desert cities requires water and food). Maybe put some sort of scale in place - bigger city, more goods required. Anyway, it's just a thought. I really do enjoy BSPI and don't want to play other biomes because I would miss it too much.

Borg
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Yeah, they are a bit disconnected because I didnt investaged the idea to chain it with
city goods. You still need to grow cities to be able to dump goods and then raise banks,
so it was enough for me :)

As for other biomes, I dont play anything else except temperate because it looks and feels best.
Also, I really want Power Stations and all its logic (I play with everything On) so only sub-arctic bio
can be extended. Im not good enough to add working industries like sprites and sounds :)

If someone feels brave and want to add stuff, I can provide sources (via GIT).
Be warned tho, its all NFO nearly directly (via my simple grfix.rb that handles mnemonics and indexing).

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by mrkastan »

Borg wrote:
21 Mar 2020 14:02
If someone feels brave and want to add stuff, I can provide sources (via GIT).
Be warned tho, its all NFO nearly directly (via my simple grfix.rb that handles mnemonics and indexing).
Well I guess looking into it can't hurt. So if you don't mind sharing it I would see if it's beyond my skills to wrap my head around it or not :D

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Okey, for now I will provide simple ZIP with sources. Here it goes:
ftp://ds-1.ovh.uu3.net/home/borg/openttd/BSPI_src.zip

You need Ruby and GNU Make to build GRF. Or, you can convert Makefile to BAT.
If you are on Windows and cant find native Ruby installer, you can download my static ruby here:
ftp://ds-1.ovh.uu3.net/pub/archive/Ruby ... 30-w32.zip

Put ruby.exe in PATH or into BSPI grf dir and fix Makefile.
You also need grfcodec as well to build GRF.

I will accept patches with bugfixes (are they any?) and minor improvements..
Be warned, im picky about changes, but sending them wont hurt.

Disclaimer: Please do NOT publish modified BSPI GRF anywhere.
You can reuse part of it in your own projects.
If you wish to fork entire project, do it on your own name.

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by mrkastan »

Thank you, that is awesome. And overwhelming :D I appreciate it even more seeing how much work went into it.

I guess I don't have the patience to program in NFO so I try to make my personal version written in NML, not shared anywhere.

And one maybe not-so-interesting observance - I found out that NewGRF does not support towns which nullify my suggestion. Only way around it would be dealing with goods in similar way to coal, i.e. bank would produce only if goods are supplied to given town. Which I might try to add to my version.

Teijo
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Teijo »

Hello, Just want to confirm, if i want to configure all bits on in this set should i put value 7 in param1(binary 111)?
Btw great industy set!

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Teijo: yes, thats corrent. Binary 111 is 7 decimal.
So Param1 = 7 will enable all features.

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Drury »

First off, per old tradition:

well done borg this is amazing holy crap :bow: :bow: :bow:

Second, my actual feedback, if you care for it:

Been having an absolute blast with this like I haven't with the game in a long time, always cool to see the occasional spicy grf to go with all the gravy grfs. Really liking the curveballs you're throwing. There's only a couple of things I'm a little iffy on.

First and foremost, the primary industry reserves - I'm not sure I'm playing around these correctly. On my first attempt, I managed to get my coal mines to produce 2K/month and they all shut down super quickly. You're saying they're gonna last 50 years on 300/month, but AFAIK the only way to keep production that low is to provide a crappy service? However, that way you're not gonna be able to give the power plants the fuel they crave, and the secondary industries the power they need to chomp through what you're feeding them. Maybe feeding a power plant from multiple mines kinda crappily is the answer? Even if that's the case, in the end, they just close down anyways, so maybe don't bother laying down actual infrastructure?

So anyways, here's the ultimate solution I came up with: a giant fleet of coal zeppelins all bound for the singular holy power plant. A service just crappy enough to keep the mines going for a long while, yet when they do close down all you gotta do is remove the heliport and build it elsewhere. I don't know if that's the intended solution, but it's what I arrived at. Maybe I'm just stupid. Maybe I just really like the sound of a giant fleet of coal zeppelins. I am definitely stupid.

Then the second thing, which I'm significantly less iffy on, but still kinda - the valuables. In the vanilla game, banks never produce them in great amounts, so you really just want to stick to the occasional armored car making the rounds now and then, in that nice and believable kinda way. Now with this GRF, you're saying at 10K city pop the bank production maxes out, which I'm seeing at like 600-something/month. I'm iffy on both of those numbers, but I guess they might make sense behind the scenes, to keep the primary industries properly fueled and whatnot. Whatever the case, what I ended up doing is I have a bunch of big old superfreighters full of gold bars to ferry the valuables between the cities. Don't tell the Somalians. As it also happens, most of my cities are well over 10K pop (with my settings, 10K is really the starting size), so my map is more like a weird alternate reality where the holy crusades never stopped and we're paving the streets and the countryside in gold, spreading it on bread and bagels too because why not.

It just seems weird to me that valuables is what you want to transport in large quantities to keep the city's stocks full, it seems more like it'd be a once-per-month resource. You know, like what goods is currently. Come to think of it, wouldn't it kinda make sense for goods to be the large volume resource for towns to stockpile, hmm? Maybe valuables could provide a simple binary boost to the primary industries, and the volume of goods delivered would be the limiting factor to town growth - if that's possible? If it is, it could give the player a way to precisely regulate the rate of town growth through gameplay. If not - well, bummer.

Oh yeah, and another thing about the boost from valuables - I'm pretty sure it was a contributing factor to my mines mining out super fast, these two mechanics don't seem to love each other too much - unless I'm remembering wrong and mine production isn't affected?

Last but not actually least - temperate is a great climate. It's fantastic, really, and I'm glad you're enjoying it to the point that you were inspired to craft this little gem for it and it only. I lied though. I hate temperate because it smells like old socks. I'm still glad you crafted this GRF though, that part is 100% true. And I totally get that you can't simply take the temperate template and paste it over the other three. And I know that the best course of action after writing this all down would be to grab the source you provided and stumble around trying to learn NFO from scratch and use it as helpful guideline towards creating my ultimate blissful experience that I would then share for everyone else to enjoy and moan about in much the same manner I've been thus far, but uhh... I don't know if that's gonna happen. I know I got no excuses in the quarantine but let's just say if somebody else nodded to any of the nonsense that I just said and is more bored and motivated than I am to gracefully go ahead instead? I don't know where this is going. I'm done typing now.
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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Borg »

Haha.. funny writing.. But.. lets focus on some serious facts.

First, you can play without reserves bit set, but of course lets assume we want to have more fun.
Second, how the hell did you managed to get 2k production from coal?
Do you play with smooth economy? Thats weird, because from what I understood, industries
using callbacks should have always work on normal economy mode. So, might be a bug then?
Also, I strongly recommend to play on Normal Economy tho...
Care to provide save? I would like to check this..

Normally, max production from industries is like this (Roughty):
Coal mines: 960
Ore Mines: 720
Forest: 960
Rigs: 960
Wells: 768
Farm: 640/640
Take a look at my server, I have loong game running atm, where I have
some (most?) of industries running at 100% production and mines can last a while
even doing 100% on them.. Of course we talk about most fat ones with 280k reserves.
If you are unlucky.. you will get smallest on with 24k reserves... yeah.. this one wont stand a long :)

As for other than Temperate, well.. If someone cares, you could probably add arctic one
as it have Power Plants too. Adding tropical is also possible, you just switch off Power Plants,
but this makes game too boring...
So, to summarize, I wont touch other climates.
If someone will do proper (and well tested!) Arctic, we can make additional release...
But I doubt it.. the only one here thats using NFO is PikkaBird, and he is busy doing other things ;)

Also, an idea just popped in in my mind, to make game even more fun and chalenging.
Im thinking about adding Fertlity (or if someone have better name suggestion..) to Farms and Forests.
Same random range (0 - 262143) but with bigger offset like 122880 so they will last longer generally.
It will be of course another Param1 bit..
Opinions? Comments?

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Re: BSPI.grf - Stockpiling Industries

Post by Drury »

Oh yeah, smooth economy is always on in my house. Oops. Switching back to normal economy actually fixes it, so yes, can copy that's weird. The callbacks got lazy over the years of disuse I guess.

I kinda grew to like it, though. It's like the opposite of what you'd normally be doing - instead of laying down a massive rail network, you have to rely on other modes of transport which have actually been more flexible than trains all along, but noone ever knew because nothing ever changes in vanilla. Playing the GRF the intended way is still more conventionally fun though.

Hypothetically, tropical could revolve around water, where plantations and farms basically become secondary industries converting water, which in and of itself would be a limited resource due to the reserve mechanic. Do you give the scarce water to the thirsty desert towns, or do you use it to grow rubber for the nike factory? The answer is simple: Just do it.

Fertility sounds neat, but wouldn't that technically be just the reserve mechanic applied to farms and forests? At any rate, yeah I'd be down for that.

I'm thinking a potentially interesting mechanic for farms would be if they were sorta seasonal, i.e. farms don't produce outside of harvest months, so you either have to quickly stockpile as much as possible in the factories or use steel to cover (which is already tricky in and of itself) and keep the towns growing all year long. Not sure any of this is possible, though.
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