Iron Horse! 2.26.0 Released 17th April 2021

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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by anatolyeltsov »

I've almost prepared Russian translation for Iron Horse but have some thoughts:

1. STR_NAME_SUFFIX_ALIGNMENT_CAR is nowhere used at the moment
2. Autocoach Set, Snowplough, Driving trailer, Driving Van trailer seems like are not proper names but at the same time they have no ability to add translation
3. Firebird, Blaze HST and Scorcher HST Passenger Wagons has strings like "%name% %van_type%" so in Russian it sounds bad - it would be cool to have ability to make string reversed - "%van_type% %name%" for these types of wagons but I don't know if it's even possible in an easy way
4. Maybe it would be cool to make STR_NAME_CONSIST_PARENTHESES in english.pylng as {STRING} {SILVER}({STRING}) to distinct main name and suffix. Just as an idea. I've tried GRAY and it looks bad but SILVER seems normal.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by spajdy »

andythenorth wrote: 26 Mar 2021 19:57 bug in nml means pax car running costs are 3x what they are shown as in purchase menu
Do you use invisible articulated parts for it and it is made from 3 parts per carriage? Because it sounds like it. Just add /3 to the problematic code, if it is the case.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by andythenorth »

spajdy wrote: 27 Mar 2021 10:34 Do you use invisible articulated parts for it and it is made from 3 parts per carriage? Because it sounds like it. Just add /3 to the problematic code, if it is the case.
Nope, it's not that but thanks.

The nml bug is that invalid variable access (e.g. in purchase menu) will return first range result instead of callback failed or a similarly useful result.

This results in incorrect purchase menu running costs being displayed for certain Iron Horse vehicles. Incorrect running costs means that the balancing is wrong.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by spajdy »

andythenorth wrote: 27 Mar 2021 12:23
spajdy wrote: 27 Mar 2021 10:34 Do you use invisible articulated parts for it and it is made from 3 parts per carriage? Because it sounds like it. Just add /3 to the problematic code, if it is the case.
Nope, it's not that but thanks.

The nml bug is that invalid variable access (e.g. in purchase menu) will return first range result instead of callback failed or a similarly useful result.

This results in incorrect purchase menu running costs being displayed for certain Iron Horse vehicles. Incorrect running costs means that the balancing is wrong.
I am aware of this, so I never do balancing on the purchase menu, because ... it is kind of not helpful at the more complex codes. It behaves kind of differently, then I want.
I hope, you get your rest and get back on the horse!
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by andythenorth »

"Public Service Announcement"

Iron Horse 2 running costs are tuned to FIRS cargo payment rates.

FIRS has always set passenger payment rate much higher than default OpenTTD rate.

There are reasons for this.

This may explain why players report it is hard to make profit with Iron Horse 2 passenger trains - these players probably aren't using FIRS :twisted:

Never noticed this before - haven't played a game without FIRS for years 8)

TL;DR:
Iron Horse 2 requires industry grf with higher passenger payment rates - FIRS or similar.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by Aegir »

andythenorth wrote: 27 Mar 2021 22:16Never noticed this before - haven't played a game without FIRS for years 8)
Dunno why anyone would 8)
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by Snail »

andythenorth wrote: 26 Mar 2021 19:57 Explanation
  • bug in nml means pax car running costs are 3x what they are shown as in purchase menu
Bug in NML? And I thought NML was this wonderful, bugless, unbreakable, lightning-fast tool that everyone was supposed to use :D
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by Emperor Jake »

andythenorth wrote: 26 Mar 2021 19:57
[*]conclusion: delete restaurant cars, move on
Couldn't you leave them in as a purely eyecandy element? It's not like the set doesn't have things like that already... :wink:
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by Gadg8eer »

Emperor Jake wrote: 30 Mar 2021 10:38
andythenorth wrote: 26 Mar 2021 19:57
[*]conclusion: delete restaurant cars, move on
Couldn't you leave them in as a purely eyecandy element? It's not like the set doesn't have things like that already... :wink:
What about having restaurant cars make more money per car than luxury passenger cars, but only for a single restaurant car?

Code: Select all

Locomotive = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Restaurant Car ($) = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($)

Locomotive = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Restaurant Car ($) = Restaurant Car = Restaurant Car = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($)
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by andythenorth »

Gadg8eer wrote: 30 Mar 2021 23:25 What about having restaurant cars make more money per car than luxury passenger cars, but only for a single restaurant car?
Yes, that is pretty much the ideal model for restaurant cars.

It isn't possible in OpenTTD however - there's no method to achieve this outcome ;)
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by Comm Cody »

chances of keeping the sprites for the restaurant cars in as a potential random sprite for the luxury pax cars, or too much work?
Something goes here, hell if I know.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by andythenorth »

Comm Cody wrote: 31 Mar 2021 23:43 chances of keeping the sprites for the restaurant cars in as a potential random sprite for the luxury pax cars, or too much work?
Not a bad idea. The restaurant car sprites weren't new - they used to be used on luxury cars - if there was a string of about 5 or more luxury cars, one coach in the middle would use the restaurant sprite.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by Snail »

andythenorth wrote: 31 Mar 2021 12:38
Gadg8eer wrote: 30 Mar 2021 23:25 What about having restaurant cars make more money per car than luxury passenger cars, but only for a single restaurant car?
Yes, that is pretty much the ideal model for restaurant cars.

It isn't possible in OpenTTD however - there's no method to achieve this outcome ;)
An admittedly hackish way to do this, would be to slightly increase luxury passenger coaches' capacity if a restaurant car is present in the consist.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by supermop »

Snail wrote: 01 Apr 2021 13:23
andythenorth wrote: 31 Mar 2021 12:38
Gadg8eer wrote: 30 Mar 2021 23:25 What about having restaurant cars make more money per car than luxury passenger cars, but only for a single restaurant car?
Yes, that is pretty much the ideal model for restaurant cars.

It isn't possible in OpenTTD however - there's no method to achieve this outcome ;)
An admittedly hackish way to do this, would be to slightly increase luxury passenger coaches' capacity if a restaurant car is present in the consist.
Or similarly, what if the a restaurant car's capacity is a function of number of passenger cars in the consist? Something like 5 seats per luxury car, 2 per regular? Some amount that for a certain length of train, adding a restaurant car will give you more seats than one more passenger car.

Both this and Snail's idea have the effect of favoring slammed full trains though, rather than some picturesque 'Glacier Express' winding its way through the Alps, but ultimately the most precious commodity in the game is always extra capacity...
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021

Post by Snail »

supermop wrote: 01 Apr 2021 13:40 Both this and Snail's idea have the effect of favoring slammed full trains though, rather than some picturesque 'Glacier Express' winding its way through the Alps, but ultimately the most precious commodity in the game is always extra capacity...
This would be easily attainable by limiting the bonus to the first, say, 6 luxury/passenger coaches.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021

Post by andythenorth »

Iron Horse 2.22.0 now on Bananas.

As LC demonstrated, the set design of Iron Horse is fatally flawed for passenger transport.

I've spent 3 days trying to devise solutions, and I've concluded that it's unfixable for the current state of OpenTTD.

This is a release to try and correct the worst mistakes by deleting Restaurant Cars and Luxury Passenger Coaches.

I've left Express Railcars, HSTs and Very High Speed Trains in the set, but they may also need deleted.

I've pretty much lost enthusiasm for Iron Horse at this point.

I've had great suggestions or advice from maybe 20 people, but none of it squares the circle I'm trying to square.

Fundamentally players demand that the game is balanced, but the game can't be balanced.

For freight transport, the Iron Horse design is to ignore balancing, and level almost all wagons, and make choices purely visual.

But for pax transport this doesn't seem to work.

I'm not in a good place with this for whatever reason, it has become a real mental block.

I won't be working on Iron Horse until I can see a way out of this. Nor Road Hog or Unsinkable Sam.

-------------
2.22.0 Release
-------------

*Changes*

- deleted Restaurant Cars
- deleted Luxury Passenger Coaches
- removed cargo aging bonus from some wagon types that were using it
- removed cargo aging malus from Passenger Coaches
- removed cargo aging malus from Metro trains

*Fixes*

- Passenger Coaches running were too high by factor of 3 (purchase menu showed correct value, purchased vehicles used wrong value)
- door sprites out of place by 1 pixel for gen 6C Driving Van Trailer
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021

Post by Mikkamakka »

How about explicitly defined 'roles'? For example, the difference between a metro and a luxury coach is not (only) that the metro has a higher capacity at the cost of lower speed, but it is also more practical for short distances. (I mean, why would passengers want to use a train/bus with no santing space for a 10 min commute?) Ideally this should be reflected by the payments. Lets say trains intended for short rides would not only have higher capacity, but also a payment bonus under x days. IC trains would have this bonus over y days in transit, and suburbans between the two. Either this, or a 'punisment' outside their intended range. Restaurant cars should only have a gradually increasing effect starting at a high distance. Under that they should have no benefit, only costs.

I don't know if any of this can be actually done in the game without it being overly complicated, sadly I can't code (yet) so it's just an idea. :D
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021

Post by andythenorth »

Mikkamakka wrote: 07 Apr 2021 11:45 I don't know if any of this can be actually done in the game without it being overly complicated, sadly I can't code (yet) so it's just an idea. :D
There is a cargo aging factor that can be used, but no it doesn't do any of those things. :D

I think I've figured out a solution for passenger coaches + restaurant cars, working on it currently.
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021

Post by LaChupacabra »

andythenorth wrote: 05 Apr 2021 21:35 As LC demonstrated, the set design of Iron Horse is fatally flawed for passenger transport.
I think you got a bit wrong interpreted it. ;)
Honestly, I didn't know how to write it... There has gathered a few problems, but I definitely don't think that anything is fatal here. On the contrary, I really like this set and I also liked the idea of ​​adding these wagons. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have spent so much time testing these solutions. Earlier, when restaurant cars were added to PKP, there were also some problems with them. These have been resolved and I think it would be possible here as well. :)

The fact is, however, that the genesis of the problem is a bit deeper and goes back to FIRS itself. It is about increased rates for the transport of passengers and mail. They spoil the balance of the game with FIRS a lot. I wrote a whole list of wishes and complaints about FIRS a while back and didn't mention it there, and that's because there is an add-on that fixes it (Reduced Passengers Payment) and I didn't want to mess too much with your concept.

The problem is big, because in games without the mentioned add-on, all industrial transport is devoid of economic sense. Why should the player build a complex and time-consuming industrial network, when it is possible to build a single connection of two cities and earn much better on it? If someone plays offline and builds for nice views, it doesn't matter, but in the case of online games, such rates skew all the competitiveness of the game. :(
[+] Spoiler
Instead of writing, I will post a screenshot - from the reddit 2 server
Image
FIRS - bad payment rates.png
(297.03 KiB) Not downloaded yet
White company:
  • transportation of passengers and mail only
  • 20 fast trains (+8 irrelevant road vehicles for city development)
  • 1 connect of two big cities
  • transport less than half of the passengers produced by the cities (70k units / quarter)
  • Profit: £ 175 million
Green company:
  • transportation of 26 industrial cargoes
  • complicated transport network, over 40 connections
  • 6 trains, 130 efficiently used high-capacity ships (transport in both directions)
  • transport of about 80% of the production of enterprises (80k units / quarter)
  • Profit: £ 17 million
xtr Transport, 2049-08-09 reddit2.sav
(4.29 MiB) Downloaded 7 times

Back to the Iron Horse, I looked at some other train add-ons...
2cc, Auz Trains, Dutch Trains, Finnish Trains - they all have cars of different classes, some have restaurant and sleeping cars, but cargo aging is not used anywhere. In my opinion, this is a drawback, or at least a deficiency, that makes the transport revenue of the various wagons not different as expected.
Timberwolf's UK Trains, Polish PKP, V4 Trains - these add-ons use cargo aging and can be a good reference point.
[+] Spoiler
Polish PKP Set
  • most passenger carriages can be converted into 1st and 2nd class - 1st class has a slightly lower load capacity, but better cargo aging
  • sleeping cars - low load capacity, but very beneficial cargo aging (they are not profitable anyway, so they act as eyecands)
  • restaurant cars - zero load capacity, but they increase the cargo aging of 1st and 2nd class cars (as expected, not profitable on short distances, but useful on long distances - a bit too small bonus)
  • regional wagons with higher capacity and loading speed have worse cargo aging
My opinion: One of the best refined train sets in OTTD, created by TadeuszD. Very good, though not perfectly balanced passenger carriages, a variety of freight carriages that have limited rebuild possibilities allowing for complex connections (possibility of rebuilding one car when all are carrying the same) - very useful in combination with complex FIRS economies. The set is definitely worth your attention.

Timberwolf's UK Trains
  • long-distance trains and wagons - favorable cargo aging, lower load capacity, slower loading
  • regional and metro trains - worse cargo aging, higher load capacity and faster loading
  • the percentage indication of the bonus or penalty in the vehicle description is legible and useful, although I have no idea what it really means
My opinion: Timberwolf made a real dragon entrance - this set is very good in many ways. The disadvantage is the significantly lowered prices of at least some EMU / DMU. There is also lack of indication of the loading speed and the type of drive next to the icon or at least in the name.

V4 Trains
  • regional, enriched version of 2cc Trains
  • the same cars as in 2cc, but here they all have different cargo aging assigned
  • the player sees cargo aging as an additional parameter "comfort / cargo decay factor"
  • the loading speed is also shown in the parameters
  • Sleeper cars have "profitable" capacity, very favorable cargo aging, but slow loading - as expected they are profitable on long journeys with not too much stops
My opinion: McZapkie added to the original 2cc carriages exactly what they were missing. In the game, information about the speed of loading as well as comfort is pleasant and useful. There may still be some bugs, but the overall balance is very good. Thanks to the visible parameters, it can also be a good reference point.
Image
Cargo ageing - sets comparison.png
(436.88 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Cargo aging, the same as for V4 Trains, is also used in Polroad buses. Other interesting markings are used for the Ikarus Set, but this function does not work there. I also remember from the beginning of my adventure with the game that this "Cargo aging" parameter was strange and didn't tell me anything - I think it's very technical and good for people who know the game well, but not for the average player.
I would like to write it again: it was not a criticism. With all the great additions, including the Iron Horse, with all the work and heart you put into it, I don't even feel entitled to even think that way. If I thought this set was uncurious, I just wouldn't be writing here. ;)
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