[OTTD] The Vactrain Set

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Afdal » 12 Apr 2013 04:48

It depends on the engine. In the Airliner Killer's case, adding engines helps because a single engine delivers more power per weight than two powered wagons. However, for the Euroliner the wagons provide more power per unit weight, and with the Shinku-eki it depends on the wagon you're using (an engine providing more power per weight than a Long Distance and Mail wagon, but not an Intercity wagon). Out of all the trains, Euroliners with Intercity wagons have the fastest acceleration and need the least amount of room to reach their top speed. And just how much room is this? A 1-tile Euroliner full of passengers needs about 131 tiles to reach top speed from zero. The acceleration room decreases as you add more Intercity wagons to the train until it levels out at around 73 tiles needed for an engine and loads of wagons full of passengers. That's with the best possible acceleration! When making high-speed networks this is an absolutely prohibitive amount of space needed to devote entirely to pre-acceleration room before trains join with other prioritized tracks so they merge at full speed without disrupting traffic.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by V453000 :) » 12 Apr 2013 10:36

I think if you are able to build a prioritized thingy, you are not the target audience for this train set, as the only option how to build those is - as Sapphire United mentioned - building a stupid ring/line without any juctions, only point to point between stations. Looks like wasted effort to me, but if the authors of the newGRF are happy with that, it is probably alright :)
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Supercheese » 12 Apr 2013 17:35

Surely the full max speed is not needed, it should take significantly fewer tiles to reach ~80-90% of top speed, no?

In any event, one can always cheat and throw on some Invisible Power Boosting engines to up the acceleration :P.
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Airplanes Builder » 23 Jul 2013 01:39

How do i add it into the game???
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by kamnet » 23 Jul 2013 02:21

Activate it in the main menu, then start a new game. It's only available starting in the year 2033.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Voyager One » 23 Jul 2013 07:10

@Airplanes Builder - Welcome to the forums mate! If I may be so rude to give you a suggestion regarding your signature picture: it's way too large. See these rules (section No.2):

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12960

I suggest you change it before some mods start yelling at you... :lol:
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by tinco » 24 Jul 2013 21:47

Hi guys,

I was wondering, if it is possible to have vacuum trains in an already saved game. I am in the year 2034, with loads of money, just finished a maglev railroad around the whole map, but the maglevs are slower than I remember them. The thing is, I have played TTD a long time ago and in that time (I think it was some version of Open TTD), where it was possible to increase the train speed with adding more train engines to one train. I was seeking this and thus building the railroad around the whole map to see how fast it will go, but it went only at the max speed of one engine. I know it is realistic, but I liked it the way it was... I know it was long time ago...

But the question remains - I have added these vacuum tube trains to the set and when I loaded my game with the set, it is not shown in the railroad options, even when I'm in 2034 year already.

Do you think it will or is it a bug?

How can this be fixed please?

Thanks a lot.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by TinyMusic » 25 Jul 2013 00:54

tinco wrote:But the question remains - I have added these vacuum tube trains to the set and when I loaded my game with the set, it is not shown in the railroad options, even when I'm in 2034 year already.

Do you think it will or is it a bug?
Try to wait for another year or two. If it doesn't appear, it probably means it is disabled by other NewGRFs. What other NewGRFs are you using?
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by kamnet » 25 Jul 2013 02:04

tinco wrote:I was wondering, if it is possible to have vacuum trains in an already saved game.
Not without modifying some configurations and accepting the risk that by doing so you can permanently corrupt your game. Generally not considered a wise idea.
tinco wrote:The thing is, I have played TTD a long time ago and in that time (I think it was some version of Open TTD), where it was possible to increase the train speed with adding more train engines to one train.
Adding more engines won't increase your maximum speed, it will increase your power and traction, though. A train with multiple engines can reach maximum speed sooner than a train with just one engine.
tinco wrote:But the question remains - I have added these vacuum tube trains to the set and when I loaded my game with the set, it is not shown in the railroad options, even when I'm in 2034 year already.
If you only added them in the main menu, that will not have any effect on save games, only new games.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by tinco » 25 Jul 2013 05:46

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I eventually found out, that the active new grf settings cannot be modified in already running game saves. So I have started a new game and there it was, so it is working.

Pity, that the speed doesn't increase with more engines though. That was real fun, watching a train with blazing speed. But as there are faster trains in the vacuum tube now, it won't matter :).

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by kamnet » 25 Jul 2013 07:08

tinco wrote:Pity, that the speed doesn't increase with more engines though.
As with anything in real life, you cannot move any faster than your maximum speed. Two things, even of equal speed, tied together can never result in them going faster together than they an alone.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by tinco » 25 Jul 2013 07:11

I'm well aware of that. I just like more unrealistic games then realistic and this was really fun back then.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Supercheese » 25 Jul 2013 07:16

kamnet wrote:As with anything in real life, you cannot move any faster than your maximum speed. Two things, even of equal speed, tied together can never result in them going faster together than they an alone.
I'm not so sure about that; if, for example, you take a locomotive and run it at maximum power over a flat course of track and record the maximum speed possible, and then add two identical locomotives coupled behind it and run the train on the same course under the same conditions, I would think that at maximum power the three could achieve a higher maximum speed than the single, albeit only marginally higher, methinks.

Although if the engines were designed to be streamlined running behind each other, perhaps a significant speed increase could be recorded...
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by tinco » 25 Jul 2013 07:23

No, kamnet is right - you can't have anything have more speed, than its maximum. Its the same as if you would throw a ball with some certain speed and then throw 2 balls at the same time one after another with the same speed. They would have the same maximum speed, because that is the power which you have thrown them away. More speed could be achieved only if you added one engine, which has higher speed, but this would be diminished a lot.

But that is the thing with games - they can be unrealistic, which is fun, as we have realistic things all around us already. But again, the vacuum tubes are more then enough speed, as they are faster then planes :).

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Voyager One » 25 Jul 2013 08:45

Supercheese wrote:I'm not so sure about that; if, for example, you take a locomotive and run it at maximum power over a flat course of track and record the maximum speed possible, and then add two identical locomotives coupled behind it and run the train on the same course under the same conditions, I would think that at maximum power the three could achieve a higher maximum speed than the single
You are mixing two different things here.

#1 - MAXIMUM speed is the maximum possible speed. It is absolutely impossible to go faster that that because of many reasons, i.e. air resistance, drag, power, traction... many physical CONSTANTS.

#2 - Actual "maximum" speed is something else. It is the speed that a vehicle can achieve under certain circumstances that are affected by additional VARIABLES than the previous one - therefore making this speed lower than the absolute maximum speed.

I.e.
Maximum speed - A Ferrari can go 280 km/h. Manage to couple two Ferraris and they won't go faster than that.

Actual max speed - A Ferrari with 1 person goes 280 km/h. A Ferrari with 4 person will go only 260 km/h. Two coupled Ferraris with 4 person on board will go 275 km/h (yes - more power, but you just can beat laws of physics).

(numbers in examples are caricatures, not real of course)
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by kamnet » 25 Jul 2013 08:52

Well, if you take a real world example, like NASCAR auto racing, vehicles teaming together to form a drafting or slipstream line can move faster through the race than individual vehicles. However, you have to take into account that a) the vehicles are typically not running their maximum speed, in part because b) they're facing wind resistance. Still, if they are all running under restriction place racing, which chokes off the engines and forces them to a lower maximum speed, all the vehicles in the world in a slipstream are still not going to overcome the maximum limit that the restriction plate causes.

OpenTTD doesn't have to worry about wind, and all vehicles are able to reach maximum speed, as long as they're not attached to a vehicle that has a lower maximum speed. For example, if your engine can run 90 MPH but you have wagons rated at 70 MPH, that engine isn't going faster than 70 MPH no matter how many engines you put in tandem.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Voyager One » 25 Jul 2013 10:46

Kamnet, that's not entirely true. The NASCAR thing is an absolute different thing. Cars are not attached one to another and different physical laws apply regarding that "higher speed" - aerodynamics mostly. In case of coupled trains, physical laws in question are mostly mechanics and kinetic laws and most parameters are constant so you can't get "more". I.e. power, weight, air resistance, air drag, tractive effort forces, resistance on tracks - all these are CONSTANT. There aren't any variables and the max speed (better said theoretical max speed) is always a constant.

If you add another locomotive, yes, you get double the power (a positive factor) but you also get double the weight (a negative factor) so your result stays the same. :wink:

As for OTTD itself:
Some engines that haul very heavy loads cannot reach their absolute max speed (as above, weight being a downside factor). It is a matter of physics that is well covered in OTTD IMO. Also, IIRC, there has been an implementation of air drag/ air resistance in tunnels, causing some trains to slow down in tunnels (tried to search for it but could not find the very discussion).

Now, all this is very questionable talk regarding a VACUUM train. Laws of physics should differ but they must still apply. Which ones - sorry, I'm not an expert in vacuum physics. :)
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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by mfb » 25 Aug 2013 23:24

If curves are not an issue, all existing vehicles are limited in their maximal speed by their power - and if we neglect steep hills, air drag (water for ships) is usually the dominating factor. If you couple two engines, you double power, but (at the same velocity) drag does not increase by a factor of two,. As a result, the longer train is faster.

A vactrain could be limited by the maximal velocity the acceleration mechanism can provide - but why would you design the acceleration mechanism in such a way? There are more reasonable constraints:
1) curve radius
2) total length of the track (we want to stop again, right?)
3) remaining air in the tunnel
4) power consumption / heat dissipation
5) safety considerations

As long as the remaining air is an issue, two engines will perform (slightly) better than one. If the final velocity is limited by (1), (4) or (5), it is probably the same for both cases.

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Re: [OTTD] Vacuum Tube Train (Vactrain) Set

Post by Railwaymodeler » 24 Sep 2013 11:27

kamnet wrote:
tinco wrote:I was wondering, if it is possible to have vacuum trains in an already saved game.
Not without modifying some configurations and accepting the risk that by doing so you can permanently corrupt your game. Generally not considered a wise idea.
tinco wrote:The thing is, I have played TTD a long time ago and in that time (I think it was some version of Open TTD), where it was possible to increase the train speed with adding more train engines to one train.
Adding more engines won't increase your maximum speed, it will increase your power and traction, though. A train with multiple engines can reach maximum speed sooner than a train with just one engine.
tinco wrote:But the question remains - I have added these vacuum tube trains to the set and when I loaded my game with the set, it is not shown in the railroad options, even when I'm in 2034 year already.
If you only added them in the main menu, that will not have any effect on save games, only new games.
Eh, actually, TTDPatch has (Or had, haven't used TTDP in a long time) the multihead switch, which does allow a higher max speed for each additional locomotive. With enough units, you could have freight diesels running as fast as a bullet train. Car speed limits tended to negate this, however.
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