stations underground and on bridges

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Taschi
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by Taschi »

TopTechDreamer wrote: 11 Aug 2021 15:21
Taschi wrote: 01 Aug 2021 19:17 That suggestion has been made before many, many, many times and is not possible without a major rework of basically the entire game. It's about as likely to happen as a capital letter in one of your posts.
- Is this true? - No.
Yes, it is.
If You don't like railway-tunnels for ships (me too), then just don't use them - convert them to the ship-depot-like-water-tunnels with 2-tiles-long tunnel entries.
Again: Sticking an unfinished, janky feature into a piece of software communicates to the user that your software is unfinished and janky. Good software developers usually see that as a bad thing.

If you want a feature in mainline OpenTTD, it has to actually be finished.

And that is why my first statement in this thread is still true: because your unfinished prototype for a heavily-limited approach to stations in tunnels and on bridges is not the same as an actual completed feature which is ready for inclusion.
Which restriction is more strong: A) to have a possibility to use a tunnel as a platform (or its part) with need to use "Go non-stop to..."-orders and waypoints or B) to don't have any such possibility?
That question is entirely misleading.

Let me put it that way: If you downloaded a painting software that does not support any shades of green, would you say "well, this is better than not having any colors at all" or would you say "wow, this software is a giant piece of s***"? I would most certainly go for the latter option.

Again: Having a feature which comes with restrictions that are completely nonsensical to anybody who doesn't have a deep understanding of how the software works internally simply communicates that your software is unfinished, janky and bad. OpenTTD does not want to be percieved as unfinished, janky and bad. Most software projects don't.
Could you tell your opinion: does it provide its declared possibilities?
Nobody is doubting that your patch does what you say it does.

It is simply not fit for inclusion in OpenTTD mainline. You said: "It seems, that OpenTTD Developers have no interest (or have other reasons) why they don't want to (or can not) do anything with this patch". And I simply explained to you my theory on why the OpenTTD developers are not interested in your patch. My reward is having you go at my throat and call me a liar. That'll teach me.

And I am not trying to dissuade you from continuing to promote your patch pack. I play with a patch pack myself. You are free to make it and promote it for as long as you want.
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by TopTechDreamer »

Taschi wrote: 11 Aug 2021 20:39
TopTechDreamer wrote: 11 Aug 2021 15:21
Taschi wrote: 01 Aug 2021 19:17 ... is not possible without a major rework of basically the entire game. ...
- Is this true? - No.
Yes, it is.
...
Again: Sticking an unfinished, janky feature into a piece of software communicates to the user that your software is unfinished and janky. Good software developers usually see that as a bad thing.
...
And that is why my first statement in this thread is still true: because your unfinished prototype for a heavily-limited approach to stations in tunnels and on bridges is not the same as an actual completed feature which is ready for inclusion.
No. This is not a lie - this is a mistake (not true), an unfounded assumption that misleads readers.
How can You know if it "...is not possible without a major rework of basically the entire game"?
Is there some prove of it?
That fact, that my patch pack is not complete in some parts, doesn't prove this assumption. Even absence of any patch with stations in tunnels is not a sufficient condition to prove that assertion, i.e. does not prove it. Such absence may be caused by other reasons, for example, because Moon was not in Saggitarius when OpenTTD was born. Or because no one wanted to do this work (earlier). The same about OpenTTD Developers: they may be busy with other work, for example, in the project of "Transport Fever 2".
- Opposite: My patch pack works well with tunnel-platforms, and this fact proves the idea, that this is possible WITHOUT MAJOR REWORK of basically the ENTIRE GAME. Because this working prototype is made WITHOUT such rework. Even WITHOUT changing the structures of data of the game - just some procedures are changed - i.e. interpretation of the already existing data. Except of storing uint16 StationID in the free place uint16 .m2 of the tunnelbridge tiles on map of the game, what allows to consider these tunnelbridge tiles additionally as station tiles. - This is the main idea and it is proved by this patch.
This patch proves, that this idea is right (even if source code files about path signals and path reservation of platforms are not changed yet).
---------------------
Taschi wrote: 11 Aug 2021 20:39
Which restriction is more strong: A) to have a possibility to use a tunnel as a platform (or its part) with need to use "Go non-stop to..."-orders and waypoints or B) to don't have any such possibility?
That question is entirely misleading.
Let me put it that way: If you downloaded a painting software that does not support any shades of green, would you say "well, this is better than not having any colors at all" or would you say "wow, this software is a giant piece of s***"? I would most certainly go for the latter option.
...
What about any shades of grey and nothing more?
If we have several options of full-color programs and color displays are everywhere today... Then, yes, we look on monochromatic displays as on garbage. But while no color displays were existing in this world many people through years were using monochromatic (black-and-white) displays. There were times of black-and-white television, cinematography, photography. For years. Because and while there were no color technology for these things. How many people said then: "I will not use photography until it became color"? Or the same about black-and-white cinema?

This release of "TopTechDreams patchpack" just provides the possibilities, which are requested in the title post of this topic. And it works stable and is available today.
It's black-and-white photography of stations in tunnels and on bridges. Can You point some another option, which gives the possibilities requested in the title post of this topic and works today, to to choose?
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by Taschi »

Okay, I think I'm done talking to you.
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by jfs »

When I think of "underground stations" I think of something like this:
Image
(Source) Can your patch do that?

When I think of "stations on bridges" I think of something like this:
Image
(Source) Can your patch do that?

I would imagine your answer is "no", and that would be because the very basic structure of the landscape data in OpenTTD does not support genuine above-ground and underground construction, only the illusion of it. This is what everyone means when they say you are 20% of the way and that getting the remaining 80% will require a very large restructuring of everything, from landscape storage over pathfinding and vehicle movement to the user interface.
Don't just assume that "a tunnel that is a station too" or "a bridge that is a station" too will cut it, most casual players will hunger for more and very soon start asking why your game claims to do stations on tunnels/bridges when it can't even do these basic things that a different game that came out in 2004 can.
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by TopTechDreamer »

jfs wrote: 15 Aug 2021 19:40 When I think of "underground stations" I think of something like this:
(Source) Can your patch do that?

When I think of "stations on bridges" I think of something like this:
(Source) Can your patch do that?

I would imagine your answer is "no", and that would be because the very basic structure of the landscape data in OpenTTD does not support genuine above-ground and underground construction, only the illusion of it. This is what everyone means when they say you are 20% of the way and that getting the remaining 80% will require a very large restructuring of everything, from landscape storage over pathfinding and vehicle movement to the user interface.
Don't just assume that "a tunnel that is a station too" or "a bridge that is a station" too will cut it, most casual players will hunger for more and very soon start asking why your game claims to do stations on tunnels/bridges when it can't even do these basic things that a different game that came out in 2004 can.
"No" and "No", of course. But:
1. OpenTTD has some limitations relatively to Chris Sawyer's Locomotion. For example, no diagonal tunnels (or bridges), no turns in tunnels (or on bridges), no bridges with only 1 end on the ground and the other end in the air (this last can be changed - viewtopic.php?p=994091#p994091 - but is not presented in my patch pack) etc.
I think, some features from Chris Sawyer's Locomotion could be implemented in OpenTTD too. For example, non-continuous surface of playground (map), i.e. with difference of height > 2 between 2 neighboring tiles.
My patch uses existing tunnels and bridges of OpenTTD - if or when they will have new shapes, so platforms on them will be able to have those shapes too.
2. Is a tunnel as a platform an underground platform? (Or a part of platform.) Some sort of an underground station? (Or a part of a station.)
Does it create new revolutionary possibilities to build train stations in OpenTTD? In particular, to save place on the ground for other objects?
I think, it have to be easy to enhance tunnel-plantforms or bridge-platforms (and stations for road vehicles and ships) that way, to let transport stop under (or over) the same station, but for other type of transport. For example: to stop a train or a bus, or a ship inside tunnel under an airport as at the station inside the tunnel. I don't know why someone doesn't implement such an obvious possibility yet.
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by odisseus »

jfs wrote: 15 Aug 2021 19:40 Don't just assume that "a tunnel that is a station too" or "a bridge that is a station" too will cut it
Why not? If the game allows placing station platforms on bridges and in tunnels, this doesn't imply that it also supports full underground or elevated networks with junctions, curves etc. As far as I know, the full underground support is not required from the technical point of view either. Nevertheless, this limited change would have a big impact on the gameplay — in particular, city metro systems would become much less invasive.

Of course there still are going to be challenges with fitting graphics and holding the station spread constraints, and the UI will probably need an update. By the way, the Locomotion screenshots you have posted for reference show some glitches. Does it mean that some amount of glitching is acceptable?
jfs wrote: 15 Aug 2021 19:40 most casual players will hunger for more and very soon start asking why your game claims to do stations on tunnels/bridges when it can't even do these basic things that a different game that came out in 2004 can.
I don't see your point. Players have long been asking for stations in tunnels and on bridges, as well as for other things like crossing bridges and signals on bridges. It's not like they are going to stop asking, even if you state that these things are impossible. On the other hand, if some of these requests turn out to be feasible, why not grant them?
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by uprrfan530 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 01 Aug 2021 19:07 i live in norway, where we have a railroad that goes both low and high. there is stations in some tunnels. nasjonalteateret train station is located under the ground. some is also right outside a tunnel but, that is already possible to do. there is also stations located on bridges, like skøyen and lysaker. my suggestion is to add that possibility to the game.
I remember asking the TT Forums about 10 yrs ago about building higher Bridges and was told similar things that it would never happen, too much coding, etc. etc. And now look where many very talented people have brought this old game. Just give it some time. Free games are worth the wait, I've read "that's impossible" on this forum before and low & behold, a later release included that "impossible" idea.

But if you just can't wait; you can always donate to Atari's Crowdfunding campaign for rollercoaster tycoon so they can sell it to Nintendo... LMAO!!!
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by Eddi »

higher bridges aren't complicated to code. they just look ugly (with the current system how bridges are drawn). the current height limit is basically just an arbitrary number. (a minor issue is with higher bridges you need to check a larger number of tiles outside the visible area, to check whether a bridge needs to be drawn, which might be a performance issue)

the difficult part is when you want to do it *properly*. i.e. change the bridge drawing system so you can make them look not-ugly.

and that's the basic problem with lots of features. there's often a "quick" way to do it and a "proper" way to do it. and if you find a feature in <ranom patchpack>, it's often the "quick" way, but accepting that feature into the official version requires the "proper" way. which is why it takes so long.
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Re: stations underground and on bridges

Post by TopTechDreamer »

jfs wrote: 15 Aug 2021 19:40 When I think of "underground stations" I think of something like this:
TopTechDreamer wrote: 15 Aug 2021 22:42 I think, it have to be easy to enhance tunnel-plantforms or bridge-platforms (and stations for road vehicles and ships) that way, to let transport stop under (or over) the same station, but for other type of transport. For example: to stop a train or a bus, or a ship inside tunnel under an airport as at the station inside the tunnel. I don't know why someone doesn't implement such an obvious possibility yet.
It is IMPLEMENTED now - projective stations - viewtopic.php?t=89586
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