railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

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accipiter2000
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railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

what is your railway network design under heavy traffic and normal vehicle breakdowns?
would you like to show the picture or save file?

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

Are you asking for guidance?

If that is the case, look at Owen's site for good tips: https://www.transporttycoon.net/rail

Another good source is George's site: https://george.zernebok.net/railways/index.html

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

HGus wrote:Are you asking for guidance?

If that is the case, look at Owen's site for good tips: https://www.transporttycoon.net/rail

Another good source is George's site: https://george.zernebok.net/railways/index.html
No, I m not asking for basic guidance.
For example,
how to minimize the impact from breakdowns?
how to service vehicles efficiently? how to layout depot?
how to layout network around a factory with monthly production of 10000+?(in order to highlight this is the question of breakdowns, i move this one to last)
Last edited by accipiter2000 on 08 Feb 2017 00:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Sylf »

accipiter2000 wrote: For example,
how to layout network around a factory with monthly production of 10000+?
how to minimize the impact from breakdowns?
how to service vehicles efficiently? how to layout depot?
For examples of games involving high volume traffic, check out Archives of OpenTTDCoop public server games and ProZone server games. And if you like the style of the game, explore other parts of OpenTTDCoop site - their wiki and blog. Join #openttdcoop on OFTC irc channel, and immerse yourself in the Coop style building. One thing though - Coop hasn't used vehicle break downs in a long time. But if you dig deep enough, you can find some tips on how you can build depots that's less disruptive of heavy traffic.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Sylf wrote:For examples of games involving high volume traffic, check out Archives of OpenTTDCoop public server games and ProZone server games. And if you like the style of the game, explore other parts of OpenTTDCoop site - their wiki and blog. Join #openttdcoop on OFTC irc channel, and immerse yourself in the Coop style building. One thing though - Coop hasn't used vehicle break downs in a long time. But if you dig deep enough, you can find some tips on how you can build depots that's less disruptive of heavy traffic.
thanks.
my question is focus on breakdowns, layout with breakdowns is difficult. breakdowns, service even order will bring many impact to other trains. how to lower the impact is not easy, sometimes I find it is hard to find a suitable space to build depot.
I hope someone can give some direct answers. cause looking into hundred of games to find something which is seldom done doesn't make sense.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

I tend to build several independent lines next to each other, as I found having cross-overs causes more harm than it helps.
paper_food.png
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Parallel but independent incoming and outgoing lines

For balancing I use some openttdcoop tactics
balancing_lines.png
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From 4 lines to 2. Each of the 4 lines has a signal just before the split, giving a train choice to go left or right. Just before the merge is also a signal, which is a waiting buffer

Another nice balancing tactic is to partly connect lines to eg platforms
food_and_pax.png
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Two incoming lines, bottom one can use the 4 left-most platforms, non-bottom can use the 4 rightmost platforms.

Edit: Actually the non-bottom one can access all platforms, but it rarely happens as trains prefer closer platforms.
Last edited by Alberth on 08 Feb 2017 05:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

Depots near platforms tends to work nicely, as train speeds aren't very high anyway, like in the above image. For intermediate service, I tend to just add a depot directly to the main line, it's has less impact than a breakdown. Double depots make that one train can go out while the next one can go in at the same time
double_depots.png
double_depots.png (158.09 KiB) Viewed 2916 times
I also tried splitting the depot off the main line, not sure that it is very useful
sub-line_depots.png
sub-line_depots.png (285.79 KiB) Viewed 2916 times
Note lack of 'straight-through' track between the depots, so trains only pick this line when they must visit a depot.
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accipiter2000
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Alberth wrote:Depots near platforms tends to work nicely, as train speeds aren't very high anyway, like in the above image. For intermediate service, I tend to just add a depot directly to the main line, it's has less impact than a breakdown. Double depots make that one train can go out while the next one can go in at the same time
double_depots.png
Thank you very much for the picture. Double depots is really interesting.
A question here is, how do you arrange the train order service to the double depot? What is your solution to make sure the second train will go to the empty depot but not waiting for an appoint one?

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

I don't have depot orders.

That means a train can go to any depot, including depots I didn't expect to be used :p
My solution to that is to make all junctions traversable in any direction, so trains cannot get lost. That takes a bit of extra track, but has the nice property that extending your network is simple, just connect the source and the destination, and the trains will find their own way on the network.
I also found that trains use unexpected routes to avoid busy areas.

Can you tell about your experiments and findings?
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Alberth wrote:I don't have depot orders.

That means a train can go to any depot, including depots I didn't expect to be used :p
My solution to that is to make all junctions traversable in any direction, so trains cannot get lost. That takes a bit of extra track, but has the nice property that extending your network is simple, just connect the source and the destination, and the trains will find their own way on the network.
I also found that trains use unexpected routes to avoid busy areas.

Can you tell about your experiments and findings?
I always give the train depot orders. because if I don't do this, it seems the train will choose the nearest depot, no matter the depot is ahead of behind. if unfortunately it choose a depot behind, it will go a big round. many unexpected and strange route will appear.
But give them depot order will face such problem, it will always go to the assigned depot, no matter if there is a empty depot nearby.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Sylf »

If you use the layout like the double-depot examples by Alberth, you can place a waypoint in front of the depot, and you can give an order to go to the waypoint, and skip the depot order.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Sylf wrote:If you use the layout like the double-depot examples by Alberth, you can place a waypoint in front of the depot, and you can give an order to go to the waypoint, and skip the depot order.
what does skip means? is that don't use depot order?

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

Yes, if you use the "go to depot" order (mandatory or servicing) the train will ignore any other depot when the time for service is done, even is the other depot is closer to the train a few tiles ahead. Use the "go via waypoint" and do not place any depots in the line between the waypoints. Near stations, where depots are closer, place them after and before the station, and build return tracks for the case of trains going to depots ahead or behind of your current target (that works for train whose servicing time goes off between depots at the stations).

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

HGus wrote:Yes, if you use the "go to depot" order (mandatory or servicing) the train will ignore any other depot when the time for service is done, even is the other depot is closer to the train a few tiles ahead. Use the "go via waypoint" and do not place any depots in the line between the waypoints. Near stations, where depots are closer, place them after and before the station, and build return tracks for the case of trains going to depots ahead or behind of your current target (that works for train whose servicing time goes off between depots at the stations).
So that still need a small loop in case of the train want to service when it go ahead of depot, right?
en..., I don't think it is good enough.
and when I test it, I found another loop is needed too. that is if the train want to service before the waypoint, it will neglect the waypoint order. so when it get serviced, the order is still go via waypoint. so a loop from depot to waypoint is needed. the service might be trigger at anywhere, so how many loop is needed might be a problem.
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

Not sure how you concluded that it will aim to go to a depot behind the train, maybe you are hiding the depots too well (there is a quite low limit to the search when looking for depots, anything beyond that limit is never even considered), so it may look like it selects a depot after it, perhaps?

To keep depot orders, you could just set half the trains to use one depot, and the other half use the the other depot. It's not optimal, but at least somewhat distributed. Having even more than 2 depots could even work, if you wanted to, I think.

Another option could be to not make one big network, but a lot of smaller ones instead. Then you can manage each small network separately, which is likely easier to cope with.



For me, all the above is too much hassle, so I opted for not having depot orders, and having the occasional train at an unexpected place.
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Alberth wrote:Not sure how you concluded that it will aim to go to a depot behind the train, maybe you are hiding the depots too well (there is a quite low limit to the search when looking for depots, anything beyond that limit is never even considered), so it may look like it selects a depot after it, perhaps?

To keep depot orders, you could just set half the trains to use one depot, and the other half use the the other depot. It's not optimal, but at least somewhat distributed. Having even more than 2 depots could even work, if you wanted to, I think.

Another option could be to not make one big network, but a lot of smaller ones instead. Then you can manage each small network separately, which is likely easier to cope with.



For me, all the above is too much hassle, so I opted for not having depot orders, and having the occasional train at an unexpected place.

aim to go to a depot behind the train is easy to trigger. I have seen such scene many times, a train with full cargo go through the destination station without any unloading because it want to serve in depot pass-by earlier, and that might be a very long journey.
so that is why I don't like not having depot orders. the service might be triggered anywhere. the result might be really worse when railway becomes a network.
Now I set half the trains use one depot, just like your said. I just wonder if there is something better idea than that.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Does this simple solution works same with openttdcoop tactics?
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Alberth
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

Never tried that, but depots behind a station would fail for intermediate service.
(or did you intend to point something else out? It was not clear to me)
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Sylf »

One correction on where to place the waypoint.
depot-waypoint.png
depot-waypoint.png (46.61 KiB) Viewed 2722 times
Things to note:
1. waypoint is placed right in front of depots
2. there is a signal between the waypoint and depot
3. the said signal is a path signal
4. waypoint is placed off the main line
With this setting, if you give an order to go to the depot, and don't give an order to go to any depot, the train will be forced to visit either one of the two depots shown.
If the capacity becomes not enough even with two depots, it is expandable.
depot-waypoint2.png
depot-waypoint2.png (55.34 KiB) Viewed 2693 times
By having multiple lines, using the same waypoint on multiple lines, the train will choose to go to waypoint that's free.
If both waypoints are free, then the train will pick the closest waypoint to them (or whichever one that has the least path-finder penalty).
Last edited by Sylf on 09 Feb 2017 22:26, edited 1 time in total.

accipiter2000
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Sylf wrote:One correction on where to place the waypoint.
depot-waypoint.png
Things to note:
1. waypoint is placed right in front of depots
2. there is a signal between the waypoint and depot
3. the said signal is a path signal
4. waypoint is placed off the main line
With this setting, if you give an order to go to the depot, and don't give an order to go to any depot, the train will be forced to visit either one of the two depots shown.
If the capacity becomes not enough even with two depots, it is expandable.
depot-waypoint2.png
By having multiple lines, using the same waypoint on multiple lines, the train will choose to go to waypoint that's free.
If both waypoints are free, then the train will pick the closest waypoint to them (or whichever one that has the least path-finder penalty).
Thank you very much.
Could you please show the train order with a picture?

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