[Base Music] OpenMSX v0.3.1

OpenTTD is a fully open-sourced reimplementation of TTD, written in C++, boasting improved gameplay and many new features.

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Ammler
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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Ammler » 27 Dec 2009 17:24

Music isn't required to start openttd like the sound and graphics, so why does that need to be a exact copy of the original music? You could also make a songlist similar to Dependencies of the newgrfs.

I mean, it would make development much easier and no license issues.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by kamnet » 27 Dec 2009 18:18

If somebody comes along and implements Owen's code (or some other code) so that the in-game player can use playlists, or play more than 31 files, or can play multiple formats, that would change a lot of the aspects of the Music Replacement Project. Somebody has to actually do that first, though.

Until the we have to work within the constraints that OpenTTD currently contains, the main two being that we're restricted to 31 MIDI tracks, with only one pack of music being loaded at a time. I don't think that's difficult to accept for now, and changing that can be a long term project for another thread, because that's all about the code and the technology. The main thing is to get people to start talking about the music itself, find people who want to contribute music, and make a decision on what to include that best represents the spirit of OpenTTD.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by kamnet » 27 Dec 2009 18:31

Ammler wrote:Music isn't required to start openttd like the sound and graphics, so why does that need to be a exact copy of the original music?
That is one of the things I'm throwing out in the open for discussion. My own personal preference would be that if we distribute any music with the game at all, that it somewhat match the style of music of the original game. To me that's part of the charm of having a clone of a popular game, to be able to live in the nostalgia of the moment. In a sense, that's also why I kinda prefer MIDI myself, more nostalgic feel.

It wouldn't be fair to permanently trap a great game in the past, though. Just as this project has added new features that were never imagined for the original game, the music doesn't have to be locked into a similar jazz and blues style of the original. If the majority feel that the style of music should be updated to reflect a more modern and mature game, then that is where we should go.
You could also make a songlist similar to Dependencies of the newgrfs. I mean, it would make development much easier and no license issues.
Well, again, that's a technical issue, it means somebody has to write code and implement it. While it would be great if that was implemented so that a player's options are expanded, it isn't essential. The in-game music player that exists now is functional, complete, and does its job very well. If or when somebody decides to take that task up, it will be great, but no reason to hold up discussion or implementation of the music replacement.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Ammler » 27 Dec 2009 19:54

Ha, I thought the midi files are much bigger, something above mp3, but they are around 50kB, so it doesn't really matter. I am looking forward to see some examples. :-)

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 27 Dec 2009 20:47

I would just like to second kamnets thoughts. Since openttd is supposed to be an "open source clone of Transport Tycoon deluxe", it should be a total clone for it's first release full release (1.0), i.e full gfx set, full sfx set and full music set. That should be the first goal, then we can expand from there. I like the idea of downloadable music packs.

If someone codes the musicplayer to play mp3, flac etc. then people can just as well make a playlist of music they have on their computer. Not that it's a bad ting, it's just something I thought should be mentioned.

And as for licensing of the music, i think it has to be "open source". If CC Sampling + fits this category, which I personally don't think it does, is debatable. If it's going to be bundled with openttd i think it should be under the same licence (GPL), but this is coming from someone who worships the GPL :bow:

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by -lucas- » 27 Dec 2009 22:19

kamnet wrote: That is one of the things I'm throwing out in the open for discussion. My own personal preference would be that if we distribute any music with the game at all, that it somewhat match the style of music of the original game. To me that's part of the charm of having a clone of a popular game, to be able to live in the nostalgia of the moment. In a sense, that's also why I kinda prefer MIDI myself, more nostalgic feel.
I think both Jørn and i agree that we want to start working on music very similar to the tracks in the original game. I would want to go as far as making sound alikes to every track in the game, the midi files can still be found on the net, so it's a matter of analyzing them and creating something similar, much like the other disciplines.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by petert » 27 Dec 2009 22:36

Is this idea still in concept? Me and my brother were talking and he said he would love to contribute to the project, since he has been playing TTD ever since it came out. He can probably start working on some samples tonight, but we would both like to know how we should submit the music?

Anyway, good luck to all the contributors, I've already inserted a bit of info at the Wikipedia page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTTD#History

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 27 Dec 2009 23:31

If we are going to recreate every track, should we make a list of people willing to help and assign songs (i want jammit! :D ).

I have started to play around with some notes, but nothing serious has come about yet. Does anyone know any good midi drum sequencers? writing drum notes in midi is less then ideal (but doable).

ps: tiny wiki is up

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Some Music Samples

Post by kamnet » 28 Dec 2009 00:03

petert wrote:Is this idea still in concept? Me and my brother were talking and he said he would love to contribute to the project, since he has been playing TTD ever since it came out. He can probably start working on some samples tonight, but we would both like to know how we should submit the music?
I don't know if any of the music we end up selecting will end up being offered in the game itself, I certainly hope so. If not, then we can at least use the results from this project to distribute outside of the game. So we still need as many people contributing as possible. I'm making this pretty easy -- if you have something you want to contribute, post a link to it here for everybody to listen to.

This evening I do have a few composers who have given their permission to distribute their files (and have even checked out the project, woot!). Pull up your player and take a listen to a few of these. These are both interesting to me in that they are NOT jazz or blues, but I think that they would work well in the game.

Doug Anderson composes ragtime music, which for the most part are high-spirited piano pieces. I like them in part because many of the graphics add-ons that have been developed focus on taking the game back to the late 1800s and early 1900s. Just as the horse-drawn trains and trucks of the late Industrial era were the forefathers of the diesel-powered trains and trucks of today, ragtime is considered the father of jazz music. Giving some "retro"music wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.
Kit "Monochrome" F. has composed tracks for several video games that are distributed by Newgrounds. These are definitely VERY untraditional TTD music, but it is modern and has a nice upbeat to it... dare I say, more similar in sound to SimCity 2000?
George E. Martin (link) has composed jazz and R&B music over the last 20 years. I think there is a good mix of "classic" and "modern" sounding music. (CC Sampling+ 1.0)
Finally, just to give you an idea of how "plug and play" friendly these music packs can be, I put together two samples that you can download. If you're using OpenTTD 1.0.0 beta-1, just drop these in your /gm folder, start up OpenTTD, click on "Game Settings", and down at the bottom is "Base Music Set", where the titles should now appear. ENJOY! NOTE -- Please unpack these files in the /gm directory! OTTD doesn't (yet) support running the music files from .tar files or subdirectories.
Last edited by kamnet on 28 Dec 2009 12:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Hamilton2007 » 28 Dec 2009 08:14

I put the Tar's in the gm folder of openttd 1.0.0-beta, but can not choose any of them when i look at gameoptions..

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Ammler » 28 Dec 2009 08:55

Debug output:
dbg: [grf] Base music set song name missing: Christmas_Music/Jingle_Bells.gm
dbg: [grf] Base music set song name missing: Scott_Joplin/The_Entertainer.gm

OpenTTD trunk r18649

Edit@Zuu: Sorry, I edited my post, didn't expect someone already read it,

I suggested to define a license right from start but then I saw those music is licensed as public domain -> that should be relicenseable to GPL :-)

Edit2: maybe the odm file could hold a tag "License" in the meta data section?
Last edited by Ammler on 28 Dec 2009 09:11, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Zuu » 28 Dec 2009 08:56

Indeed, from the music you have been able to provide all you got is that it can be distributed with OpenTTD. I would like to see a more strict statement from them. Ideally "GPL version 2", but any other license is better than not specifying a license.

That said, it is really nice that you have been able to work with your contacts and come up with some music. I also like that you are pushing forward the project instead of ending in technical discussions to no end.
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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by kamnet » 28 Dec 2009 09:26

Hamilton2007 wrote:I put the Tar's in the gm folder of openttd 1.0.0-beta, but can not choose any of them when i look at gameoptions..
Oops, I should have mentioned that you need to unpack them directly into the /gm folder (at least for now, unless somebody makes a code change in OTTD to run them from tar files or from subfolders). I didn't think of that. :oops:
Zuu wrote:Indeed, from the music you have been able to provide all you got is that it can be distributed with OpenTTD. I would like to see a more strict statement from them. Ideally "GPL version 2", but any other license is better than not specifying a license. That said, it is really nice that you have been able to work with your contacts and come up with some music. I also like that you are pushing forward the project instead of ending in technical discussions to no end.
For the two sample music packs that I offered, those are all Public Domain, their copyrights have expired. For the MIDI file links that I just provided, all three authors have agreed to CC Sample+ NC license. I didn't post it since we haven't even gotten to discussion as to whether or not to include those specific pieces. I'd rather have that nailed down first before we start haggling over licensing. I've already learned that discussion of licensing first tends to kill the mood with the composers, I want to get them excited about contributing to the project first :wink:

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Ammler » 28 Dec 2009 09:56

"Public Domain" is no legal term everywhere, you should relicense those to GPL.

It isn't helpful either, if someone contributes very nice midi files but doesn't define a license and a half year later, when you like to pack those files to OpenMuSiX, he/she isn't around anymore to give you permission. You should add a term to the first post, something like "If you upload midi files to this thread, you agree to license it unter GPLv2+."
Maybe also add "GPL" to the thread title.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by planetmaker » 28 Dec 2009 10:23

kamnet wrote:...since we haven't even gotten to discussion as to whether or not to include those specific pieces. I'd rather have that nailed down first before we start haggling over licensing.
I can only very strongly recommend to do it the other way around. The history of OpenGFX teaches it well that the license is the first you should agree upon before you even start. We had to let go a bunch of good graphics simple as the authors weren't around anymore or were not agreeable to the GPL license finally chosen by the majority. Going your approach you'll end up with a bunch of nice contributions but you get nowhere as you simply cannot agree upon a license - and the common denominator is only the most restricted possible license and not a free one.

Also, at least as important: license discussions are NO fun at all; especially if all involved parties already invested a lot of time into the project.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by kamnet » 28 Dec 2009 12:40

You're right, it should be done the other way around, ensuring that the contributed works are cleared for distribution under license first. With the ones I just posted, I already have an agreement with those composers to use the Sampling+ non-commercial license. The main concern with most of the composers who have communicated back with me sofar is that if they're going to contribute their tracks for free, that others do not financially profit as well. The CC license satisfies their concerns.

Lucas expressed an interest in "copyleft" licenses. The CC Sampling+ licenses are an extension of that from what I can tell. It was jvlomax who expressed interested in releasing his work under GPL. From looking at GPL, and looking through some online forums, it doesn't appear that GPL is actually suited for it (or, at least, the musicians who spoke up about it didn't believe it was adequate), and for anything related to music a CC license appears to be the preferred route, while GPL is preferred for actual computer software.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by -lucas- » 28 Dec 2009 12:51

Hey guys,

Before this gets out of hand -

In this one topic we have discussion about technical requirements, licensing, contextual composing and using pre-existing tracks.
I too have experience with music in games, albeit more on the implementing side, and i can assure you we need a clear location in which we present who will compose which track exactely in what style / for what bundle or things will get really confusing really soon.

I think we should keep the pre-existing tracks seperated from the tracks at least three people (petert('s brother), jvlomax and myself) are going to compose now. So i suggest we make a wiki or topic about the sound alike project, complete with (nick)names, tracks in progress, tracks finished and tracks that still need a ´translation´.

As far as i understand, jvlomax wants to start with Jammit, i would like to sink my teeth into the intro music, so if petert('s brother) also picks one, that would be three good testcases.

Also, regarding the music links: the music in TTD was slightly more subtle, even the ragtime pieces, because you'll hear it in the background constantly. You tend to get ear fatigue pretty soon, so if you use them, make sure to combine them with lots of lower pace pieces as well or people will turn the music off.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by -lucas- » 28 Dec 2009 12:55

kamnet wrote: The main concern with most of the composers who have communicated back with me sofar is that if they're going to contribute their tracks for free, that others do not financially profit as well. The CC license satisfies their concerns.
That's fine by me as well then.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Ammler » 28 Dec 2009 13:02

Well, you should decide/agree, what license to take for new composed midi here. For that, you should use GPL, the best community license. :-)

For existing samples you use the license those already have (Public Domain -> GPL)

As Rubidium already mentioned, the OpenSFX project has 99% of its files from sources already licensed.

It would be sad, if you license your contribution to restrictive from start...

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P.S. if you need a place for the sources (GPL), we (#openttdcoop) are happy to host it on the DevZone. (like Open[G|S]FX).
Also the tracker could help you for developing, just check it out: http://dev.openttdcoop.org

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Re: Some Music Samples

Post by Timmaexx » 28 Dec 2009 13:11

kamnet wrote:
Those two packs are awesome! Well Christmas Music is soon outdated, but this ragtime stuff is timeless!
In my opinion they should be uploaded as pre-Beta just to let the persons, which aren't active(nor reading) in this forum, see there is something. We should keep the spirit alive...

Greets Tim

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