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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:12 pm 
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Here are the current solutions to the best system for bigger/longer depots, long trains, forbidding 90 degree turns, and depot through-put found in this thread... Keep posting new designs here...

All examples here are for 7-tile trains (approx. 14-units including engine)...

To adapt to different train lengths all you need to do is uniformly, and linearly, expand/contract all 7-tile distances of track or depot to the train-tile-length you require whilst keeping the track connections/points system the same...


The BEST DESIGN that comprises of all the above, in my opinion at least, is here... https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=105813


1) Updated Advanced Depot, with space for long trains to accelerate whilst entering/exiting the main-line, also permissive of "forbid 90 degree turns"

Attachment:
File comment: Advanced Depot Update
advanced_depot_revised_1.png
advanced_depot_revised_1.png [ 53.88 KiB | Viewed 10851 times ]


UPDATE: Now with Train Priority

Image

Signals are as follows...

A) Entry Pre-Signal (One way, on to main-line)
B) Combo Pre-Signal (Two Way)
C) Exit Pre-Signal (Two Way)

If a train is in the blocks preceding Signals B and C, Signal A will be RED until they are clear, this means that trains on the main-line will always get to pass first before a train leaves the depot area :D

2) A design based on Ostlandr's "wye-track" to allow up to two trains to enter/exit a line at once

https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=105014

3, 4 + 5) Updates of the simple station to allow for long trains and fast speeds on/off track, also permissive of "forbid 90 degree turns"

[3+4]Image

[5]Image

6 + 7) Designs based on Phil88's work, also permissive of "forbid 90 degree turns"

[6]Image

[7]Image

8 + 9) Designs based on FooBar's designs for multiple train servicing with minimum disruption to a mainline, also permissive of "forbid 90 degree turns"

[8]Image
[9]Image
[9]
Attachment:
File comment: Bidirectional Revision of FooBar's Design
FooBar_revision_bidirectional_1.png [59.89 KiB]
Downloaded 32 times


10) Hybrid design based on FooBar's work by myself to minimise space consumption

Image
Attachment:
File comment: Hybrid Design
jacobd88_FooBar_revision_bidirectional_1.png [62.19 KiB]
Downloaded 158 times





#ORIGINAL POST#


Just need some help improving the depot system I've used for ages (since plain old TTD in fact in some form) in OpenTTD... Please find attached...

EDIT: FILES REMOVED

Now looking at the numbered screenshot of the system I already use...

Trains enter the service area from the direction indicated by the RED arrows, i never use compulsory servicing unless i really need to, so if a train is not in need of service it inherently passes through on the central two tracks (the main-line)... But not always... So this is one problem that needs solving...

If a train requires servicing it (depending on direction) will enter area 1 or 4 (indicated by yellow number), which i always make as long as the maximum train size on my network in case a train needing a service needs to wait for another train to leave a depot... In this instance the maximum train size is 7 tiles (approx. 14-units)...

I also have another area, 2 or 4, for trains leaving the depot to wait to re-join the line, which allows the next cued train in area 1 or 4 to enter the depot whilst the train in area 2 or 4 waits... This stops the majority of main-line lock ups or slowdowns due to trains entering or exiting the depot at approx 38mph...

Now I know this can be improved, but I'm unsure as to how, I have been using PBS signalling at stations and junctions for a while now, and I've used pre-signals before that, but never went to improve the depot system I used until I knew PBS was definitely going to make it to trunk or not... This is why the signals are still the traditional TTD type...

So in short I'd be grateful for any posts with improvements, the only requirements I really have are that the new system is no wider in terms of tracks if possible (so 6-8 tiles in this case) and allows me to build the "bigger depots" as per the screenshot, it would be also nice to retain the 7-tile waiting areas if these would still be required to not slow down trains passing through on the mainline as my networks are inherently very,very, busy (typically 2000+ engines on a 1024x1024 map, the screenshot is from a "quiet" bit) and I really can't have trains waiting whilst other trains go for servicing...

Oh, and a final note, i always forbid trains from turning 90 degree angles (hence the odd tracks on the outside of the screenshot entering the depot) so a solution that took this into consideration would be great

Many thanks

Jacob




The depot graphics btw were originally by Snorbuckle and i have re-coded them here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=40577 ... They are part of a much larger and on-going project to build depots in a similar manner to stations (or even as part of station areas) and add bi-directionality, and multiplexing amongst other improvements...

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Last edited by JacobD88 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:40 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:38 pm 
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At the place on your side-line where trains can turn into the depot, remove the possibility for them to drive straight and not entering the depot. Then trains that don't want to go to the depot will neither find a path via the side-line.

So it is a little bit straight track you need to remove at each side-line.


I usually don't build long depots, so I often use the standard side-line depot which many players uses. But it was nice to see your solution to it. The turn-around for the trains that enter the depot adds a bit extra esthetically to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Here are the two depot layouts I am currently using. First (lower right) I have moved my depots back from right next to the station crossovers to a train length block away, so that trains leaving the main keep moving at speed until they are clear of the crossover. When leaving, the train will stop at the PBS signal (if necessary) then enter the main at its normal speed instead of the leaving-the-depot speed.

The second (upper left) I move the depot onto a "wye" track; again, a train-length block away from the main, but this time with incoming and outgoing tracks. For more volume, these could be double or triple tracked to give queueing lanes for trains entering the depot and multiple exit lanes for those leaving.


Attachments:
Jones & Co., 10th Apr 1950.png [139.92 KiB]
Downloaded 386 times

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:41 pm 
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I often put the depots alongside a station, and make the entrance to it in the same way as a normal platform. That way there's no interruption to mainline services

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:47 pm 
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ostlandr wrote:
Here are the two depot layouts I am currently using. First (lower right) I have moved my depots back from right next to the station crossovers to a train length block away, so that trains leaving the main keep moving at speed until they are clear of the crossover. When leaving, the train will stop at the PBS signal (if necessary) then enter the main at its normal speed instead of the leaving-the-depot speed.

The second (upper left) I move the depot onto a "wye" track; again, a train-length block away from the main, but this time with incoming and outgoing tracks. For more volume, these could be double or triple tracked to give queueing lanes for trains entering the depot and multiple exit lanes for those leaving.


Hi, thanks for all the help, i've had a look at the depots you suggested and i have created the following, is this what you meant about being able to add extra tracks?

Attachment:
File comment: 2-Depot Service area... 2x tracks enter and exit...
St. Plesleigh Transport, 29th Mar 1928.png [168.44 KiB]
Downloaded 251 times


If so, is there any improvements that could be made to compact it down whilst still allowing for trains that are 7 tiles long? As it stands in this form it is much more efficient than my existing method so i appreciate the screenie to build from, but it is 34 tiles wide with the long depots, or 22 tiles without, or 17 tiles and 11 tiles respectively for a depot serving a track in one direction...

I will happily use this layout now where space allows as the "wye" shape is very efficient at getting trains on and off the mainline with the minimum of turns :mrgreen:

I need a space saving solution for mountainous areas though, as i prefer not to flatten or raise large chunks of land to fit these in...

As to the other depot at the station, i already use a similar system that appears as follows labelled "A", again because of wanting to take down the amount of space i usually place the depot in-line with the mainline, labelled "B" and use the funny extra track for counteracting the "forbid trains from turning 90 degrees patch" i use in my games... This works well, but i am left with the train still slowing down because unlike in your and my depot "A" where the train makes a maximum of one turn (which is why i use this when space allows), "B" means that trains heading toward the station have to turn 3 times to enter the depot and slow things down... Can you think of a space saving solution to this that would be faster? Again i will use "A" where space allows :)

Attachment:
File comment: Depot at station - Labelled...
Grimport Beeches Transport, 27th Mar 1928_Cropped_labelled.png [59.31 KiB]
Downloaded 1625 times


zuu wrote:
At the place on your side-line where trains can turn into the depot, remove the possibility for them to drive straight and not entering the depot. Then trains that don't want to go to the depot will neither find a path via the side-line.

So it is a little bit straight track you need to remove at each side-line.


I usually don't build long depots, so I often use the standard side-line depot which many players uses. But it was nice to see your solution to it. The turn-around for the trains that enter the depot adds a bit extra esthetically to it.


Hi thanks for the pointer on the little bit of straight track, i realised after posting that the "advanced depot" on the wiki which is really similar to my old system doesn't have it, so i'm in the process of going through all my network and changing all the depots to not have this track :D

Yeah i really like the turn-around track, there's something strangely nice about having to build little details like that... It's the main reason i love the "forbid trains to turn 90 degrees" patch, you have to think of little solutions to problems like that all the time and this is probably the best i've found so far... But as always i'm sure there is room for improvement, as mentioned above one big drawback is that trains move really slowly due to the three turns they have to make, but in my original design for depots next to main-lines this is not so much of a problem as the trains have waiting areas off the main-line... It just becomes a problem at stations as per the screenshot above...








On a different note entirely and for a bit of fun, here's a screenie of a station i'm trying to section up into a passenger only area (consisting of two tracks at the far lower left of the shot) and a freight area consisting of four tracks next to it... A mainline curves round a mountain in the right portion of the image and everything comes on/off that... Waypoints are use to split trains off to the right part of the station or allow trains on the mainline to just pass-by... I don't usually like cutting into mountains but i had to for the two tunnels on this one :( Also i have all distances between track junctions allowing for single 7-tile trains (or more in some parts) to wait... All the standard signals i used in the shot are placed on the 7th tile so trains still won't enter behind another train where there is not space until the train in front moves off (which means the waiting area is about to become free) this means i get that little bit of extra time-saving...

Attachment:
File comment: A bit of fun trying to get a single station split into passenger only and freight only areas...
Freathwaite Springs Transport, 21st Jul 2037.png [243.5 KiB]
Downloaded 137 times

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:08 pm 
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audigex wrote:
I often put the depots alongside a station, and make the entrance to it in the same way as a normal platform. That way there's no interruption to mainline services


Thanks, your suggestion just gave me this idea...

Attachment:
File comment: A newer station depot design...
Unnamed, 1st Jan 1928_cropped.png
Unnamed, 1st Jan 1928_cropped.png [ 25.04 KiB | Viewed 12072 times ]


A little better than the screenshot "B" in my last post... As only trains leaving the station to go to depot will be slowed by the 3-turns, leaving only 2-turns for traffic heading to the station... Any further ideas?

EDIT: I have added a waiting area too as to not have slow trains entering/exiting the line...

Attachment:
File comment: A newer station depot design... With waiting area...
Plesdingstone Transport, 15th Jan 1928_cropped.png
Plesdingstone Transport, 15th Jan 1928_cropped.png [ 44.42 KiB | Viewed 12140 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:57 pm 
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This is how I'm doing my depots on the mainlines at the moment. I figured there's no worry about the 2*45 turns because if a train is half in a depot, it can only do 61km/h anyway. The only problem is that there isn't any slowing down/speeding up room for the trains to leave or re-enter the mainline without slowing down other trains.
ImageImage

Here's how I've done the depot at my main goods yard. Originally there were no platforms to the bottom right of the depot, but as demand increased, I added another platform where I could. Trains coming out of the depot can only go to 2/4 platforms or leave the yard. Similarly, trains can only enter the depot from the goods yard's entrance, or 2 platforms. I did this intentionally so that the goods yard wouldn't be clogged up with trains going to and from the depot.
Image

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:31 pm 
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phil88 wrote:
This is how I'm doing my depots on the mainlines at the moment. I figured there's no worry about the 2*45 turns because if a train is half in a depot, it can only do 61km/h anyway. The only problem is that there isn't any slowing down/speeding up room for the trains to leave or re-enter the mainline without slowing down other trains.



Here's how I've done the depot at my main goods yard. Originally there were no platforms to the bottom right of the depot, but as demand increased, I added another platform where I could. Trains coming out of the depot can only go to 2/4 platforms or leave the yard. Similarly, trains can only enter the depot from the goods yard's entrance, or 2 platforms. I did this intentionally so that the goods yard wouldn't be clogged up with trains going to and from the depot.



Hi, thanks for the ideas, i agree the flaw with no room to allow for trains to wait/speed up is an issue with this layout, in addition as one line of traffic has to cross the other to be serviced that can cause trains to wait on the opposite line of traffic whilst it moves into the depot... But from your design i tried to improve it a little... What do you think of this?...

Attachment:
File comment: Revision of phil88's design...
Old Tenthwaite Transport, 10th Jul 1928_small_1.png
Old Tenthwaite Transport, 10th Jul 1928_small_1.png [ 23.2 KiB | Viewed 11928 times ]


It takes up a little more space along the line, but is still only 4-tiles wide and covers both directions of traffic, it does however allow trains to move off or on to the mainline at a higher speed... I can also still use the "forbid trains to turn 90 degrees" patch...

I also came up with the following to stop trains having to cross directions of traffic based on your design, but it still is too large, the path signals on the depot line are probably not needed either so i guess they're optional...

Attachment:
File comment: A newer design... still too large though...
Old Tenthwaite Transport, 18th Jun 1928_small_3.png
Old Tenthwaite Transport, 18th Jun 1928_small_3.png [ 30.65 KiB | Viewed 11934 times ]


Your image of the station set up i found greatly interesting, as my first impression was "nah, the trains would be too slow because they are entering/exiting the depot accross the station entrance and this would slow other traffic down"... Then i realised that trains entering the station would enter the same speed as they would entering the depot anyway so it wouldn't make a difference (at terminus stations like these anyway) as it would just be like having an extra platform... I like it, i may play around with these ideas a little more i also like the idea you have for not clogging the station either so very happy... Still need a better solution for off-main-line depots though as all so far have both big advantages and big disadvantages...

With permission i might re-edit and stick copies of everyone's designs on the first post of this thread as new methods are developed as immediate reference because i like some of the designs people use, the variety is surprising and i've learnt a couple of things too... Any more ideas?? Keep posting :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:56 pm 
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How 'bout this?
Trains enter the depot at the right when due for service, but in order to get back on the main line, they need to visit the opposite depot as well. One could even create a whole depot complex allowing multiple trains to service at the same time.

I just came up with this idea, so I haven't tested it's effectiveness yet.


Attachments:
Naamloos-1.png
Naamloos-1.png [ 9.79 KiB | Viewed 11821 times ]
Naamloos-2.png
Naamloos-2.png [ 31.33 KiB | Viewed 11838 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:15 pm 
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FooBar wrote:
How 'bout this?
Trains enter the depot at the right when due for service, but in order to get back on the main line, they need to visit the opposite depot as well. One could even create a whole depot complex allowing multiple trains to service at the same time.

I just came up with this idea, so I haven't tested it's effectiveness yet.


Ooo, interesting, the first design would just slow things down, but the second shows promise for multiple-servicing i can see... Will play around with this over the next few days :D

EDIT: Just expanded FooBar's second design ever-so-slightly to allow for 7-tile trains to work more effectively, still only for servicing traffic only from one direction, it works nicely, but seemingly as with all nice-working depots so far... It's huge...

I love the way the bigger depots fit nicely in though, they don't look out of place... Best design i think so far for a balance between aesthetically pleasing/"realism" factor and volume of trains serviced... Thanks FooBar :D

Attachment:
File comment: FooBar's design expanded...
Freathwaite Springs Transport, 12th Aug 2037_small.png [36.73 KiB]
Downloaded 1578 times


EDIT 2: Added the same for traffic in the opposite direction...

Attachment:
File comment: FooBar's design expanded to accommodate opposite traffic direction...
Freathwaite Springs Transport, 12th Aug 2037_2_small.png [59.89 KiB]
Downloaded 1578 times

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:42 am 
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JacobD88 wrote:
Thanks FooBar :D

You're welcome! It's fun to see that you mirrored my initial setup. From the looks of it, it should work just as well, if not better. :)

I'm wondering if it would work if you put one of these things in the middle of the two main tracks, instead of two at the side... :]

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:35 pm 
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FooBar wrote:
JacobD88 wrote:
Thanks FooBar :D

You're welcome! It's fun to see that you mirrored my initial setup. From the looks of it, it should work just as well, if not better. :)

I'm wondering if it would work if you put one of these things in the middle of the two main tracks, instead of two at the side... :]


OK, you've given me this idea...

Attachment:
File comment: Another Idea based on FooBar's...
Freathwaite Springs Transport, 19th Sep 2037_small.png [62.19 KiB]
Downloaded 1579 times


Is that how you'd implement it?

It seems to work, and is only 5 tiles wide :)

EDIT: Does seem to cause a little slow-down on heavy traffic lines when more than one vehicle needs to leave or re-enter the mainline at once ?(

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:23 pm 
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Yeah, something like that :P

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:37 am 
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Just created another version of the Advanced Depot in my FP, this time it has train priority for the main-line :D

Attachment:
File comment: Advanced Depot w/ Train Priority
Advanced_Depot_Train_Priority_1.png
Advanced_Depot_Train_Priority_1.png [ 36.45 KiB | Viewed 10772 times ]


Signals are as follows...

A) Entry Pre-Signal (One way, on to main-line)
B) Combo Pre-Signal (Two Way)
C) Exit Pre-Signal (Two Way)

If a train is in the blocks preceding Signals B and C, Signal A will be RED until they are clear, this means that trains on the main-line will always get to pass first before a train leaves the depot area :D

Starting to hope that the copy/paste patch makes it to trunk as all these designs can take some time to build :lol: :bow:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:47 pm 
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JacobD88 wrote:
Starting to hope that the copy/paste patch makes it to trunk as all these designs can take some time to build :lol: :bow:


that will never happen


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:50 pm 
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personally i dont like the designs at all, i dont see anything 'efficient' about them! the only thing i see is a huge ass depot


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:02 pm 
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dihedral wrote:
personally i dont like the designs at all, i dont see anything 'efficient' about them! the only thing i see is a huge ass depot


Agreed they will usually not be as efficient as the depot-systems you can create using a single depot tile, but that was the challenge in this thread, to create systems for "bigger depots", long trains, and the forbid 90 degree patch, using 7-tile trains as an example...

Some are more aesthetically pleasing like FooBar's designs, but at the same time, although FooBar's design does mean that trains have to enter/exit a depot at least twice before re-entering the mainline, it allows for multiple trains to be serviced at once to compensate for the slower exit speed... Which is why i chose it as my "best" design, the hybrid i created from his work was also the smallest design here for bi-directional servicing, and was aesthetically pleasing...

The other nice depot was the Advanced Depot with Train priority, although huge due to the "bigger depot" and longer train requirements, it's still more efficient in my networks than the Advanced Depot on the wiki because of the main-line train-priority i later built into it :D

As to size over-all though, like i said in the FP, you can enlarge/constrict the size of the depot system to the train size you want to use quite well, the only thing that doesn't change is the width in tracks of the system, just the length of tiles...

In other words, the advanced depot (w/ train priority) can easily become this big for 3-tile (6-unit) trains... And still works (slightly) more efficiently than the one in the Wiki...

Attachment:
File comment: Smaller Advanced Depot w/train priority...
Advanced_Depot_Train_Priority_Smaller_1.png
Advanced_Depot_Train_Priority_Smaller_1.png [ 20.16 KiB | Viewed 10342 times ]



Roest wrote:
JacobD88 wrote:
Starting to hope that the copy/paste patch makes it to trunk as all these designs can take some time to build :lol: :bow:


that will never happen


I knew at heart it wouldn't, afterall it's always up to the Devs and their vision of OTTD, i remember the CBH decisions which they were in a lot of ways quite right to make, as dihedral said earlier today on another thread "thankfully it's not always the community that decides if a patch / suggestion is accepted ;-)
there are many patches that the community would like, however the community simply lacks the oversight of the project!
"...

At the end of the day ever since Mr Drexler bought out the first TTDPatch, ive always been accepting of the fact that both TTDP and OTTD are worked on, for free, by a team of devs who put their own time and vision into the projects, and that makes me greatful just to have a TTDP or OTTD :D :bow: it's their work that has kept TTO/TTD alive for over 15-years and done so with no demands from the community except patience and respect :mrgreen:

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High-Functioning Autistic & Proud... National Autistic Society * Asperger Foundation
My (O)TTD Work...BIGGER DEPOTS (REL.) & SERVICING-STATIONS (WIP) * Advanced DEPOT DESIGNS * SCREENSHOTS
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I now work for DE PHOTO - CLICK TO BOOK US TO SHOOT YOUR EVENT! We Shoot Kids with Canons!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:58 pm
Posts: 43
One problem I see with a depot complex is there is no facility within the game to define this complex. Trains can only have a specific depot in their order list. There is no way currently (that I am aware of, anyway) to specify that a train can visit any one of a group of depots to satisfy its service order.

Perhaps, just as an idea, if there were depot complexes similar to train stations now, where single depots could be joined into a single unit (or complex, as it were), allowing multiple trains to be serviced at the same time. Then instead of a single depot being part of a trains order list, the depot complex would be there and a visit to any of the depots in the complex would mean the service order is satisfied.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:34 pm 
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Tycoon
Tycoon

Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 6984
there is a "go to nearest depot" order. so if you have a waypoint before the depot signal, you can send trains to that waypoint, and if they need servicing, they will check which depot they can reach better (i think this takes into account pathfinder modificators like reserved track)

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You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:57 pm 
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Chief Executive
Chief Executive
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Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:51 pm
Posts: 672
Location: Long Eaton, Nottinghamshire. UK
Klaatu wrote:
Perhaps, just as an idea, if there were depot complexes similar to train stations now, where single depots could be joined into a single unit (or complex, as it were), allowing multiple trains to be serviced at the same time. Then instead of a single depot being part of a trains order list, the depot complex would be there and a visit to any of the depots in the complex would mean the service order is satisfied.


If you look in my signature I'm working on something to exactly this end (and with many other planned features/functionalities) under the WIP title "Servicing-Stations", so if you have any coding or graphics experience i would appreciate any help :D :wink:




Here's a mock-up (Contains Snorbuckle's/My Bigger Depots GRF and ISR set too)...

Image

_________________
High-Functioning Autistic & Proud... National Autistic Society * Asperger Foundation
My (O)TTD Work...BIGGER DEPOTS (REL.) & SERVICING-STATIONS (WIP) * Advanced DEPOT DESIGNS * SCREENSHOTS
Image
I now work for DE PHOTO - CLICK TO BOOK US TO SHOOT YOUR EVENT! We Shoot Kids with Canons!


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