Donald Trump elected 45th US president

[luxtram]

But let me continue with a famous quote: “Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

What does a quote said by a character in a fictional film have to do with anything? Just because in that movie those words were associated, doesn't make it the case in the real world...

I have fears, I'm not angry at them.
I'm angry at people, I don't hate them.
I hate people, I don't suffer, nor do they, and I have no intention to make them.

It's a quote from a movie, hardly something to live your life by.

You are acting like something being in the movie makes it less valid. There are many paths to hate, this is one of them. That you are aware about your feelings and you believe that you can master them does not mean that many others can. If you dismiss other peoples feelings, then how can the world become a better place?

[Pilot]

But let me continue with a famous quote: “Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

What does a quote said by a character in a fictional film have to do with anything? Just because in that movie those words were associated, doesn't make it the case in the real world...

I have fears, I'm not angry at them.
I'm angry at people, I don't hate them.
I hate people, I don't suffer, nor do they, and I have no intention to make them.

It's a quote from a movie, hardly something to live your life by.

You are acting like something being in the movie makes it less valid.

That's because it does... Fictional movies are made to entertain, they're not meant to be something to live your life by

There are many paths to hate, this is one of them.

Hate doesn't come from fear, and I'm sorry but if you use that as an excuse, then maybe you deserve to suffer...

[Pyoro]

Hate doesn't come from fear, and I'm sorry but if you use that as an excuse, then maybe you deserve to suffer...

Stated so categorically is a bit too strong. Fear has a lot to do with hate - when people started burning witches, they did so out of fear. When people killed Jews, they did it for the same reason. Violence against immigrants and Muslims, and the other way around, is often rooted in the same basic emotions.

[Pilot]

Violence against immigrants and Muslims, and the other way around, is often rooted in the same basic emotions.

I'm sorry, but no. People have a fear of terrorists, rapists, murderers. However, because certain people either claim to do it in the name of a religion, or are blaming immigrants and certain communities, that sparks the hatred. People like Trump are the reason for the hatred.

[Pyoro]

I'm sorry, but no. People have a fear of terrorists, rapists, murderers. However, because certain people either claim to do it in the name of a religion, or are blaming immigrants and certain communities, that sparks the hatred. People like Trump are the reason for the hatred.

I don't quite see how that's supposed to contradict what I'm saying. ^^;

Nobody claimed this sort of thing happened in a vacuum. You don't have those stereotypical American trailer guys sitting in his chair one day and going "wait, I'll hate Muslims now!" It happens because of a certain climate, because certain messages are repeated, because certain circumstances exist. So, sure, it needs people like Trump, but that doesn't mean their motivation isn't rooted in fear or insecurity.

[Pilot]

I'm sorry, but no. People have a fear of terrorists, rapists, murderers. However, because certain people either claim to do it in the name of a religion, or are blaming immigrants and certain communities, that sparks the hatred. People like Trump are the reason for the hatred.

I don't quite see how that's supposed to contradict what I'm saying. ^^;

What I'm trying to say is, it's not the fear that goes directly to hate. It's the racist idiots playing on the fear that leads to hate.

[Drury]

Violence against immigrants and Muslims, and the other way around, is often rooted in the same basic emotions.

I'm sorry, but no. People have a fear of terrorists, rapists, murderers. However, because certain people either claim to do it in the name of a religion, or are blaming immigrants and certain communities, that sparks the hatred. People like Trump are the reason for the hatred.

Trump certainly doesn't help, but he's not the source of anything. The guy's an idiot who can't do anything but echo people's fears and hopes and materialize them and they like him for that.

Christian-Muslim relations are super complex, but to give a random example, I've seen a lot of people aiming their hate at the Middle East and the pitiful conditions of Islamic theocracies there and calling for a reform of Islam. It's a super valid point - Islam does go against many western values, nobody can deny that. The calm, non-radical muslims are actually going against their own religion in many ways, mostly when it comes to not being hardcore misogynists (having one wife, allowing her to shake hands with other men etc etc etc). Burka is a symbol of that, and whether the woman likes it or not, some westerners will hate it as a symbol of an oppressive backwards system. Yes, those people who support Trump and are claimed to be rapists/misogynists.

As I said, it's not a simple issue and we shouldn't pretend it is. Trump isn't a leader of any movement, for many people he's just an agreeable guy. Those people will now feel validated and become more vocal about their views, but it's not like they're "Trump converts" or anything.

EDIT: If you mean that Trump being in power is a reason for hatred by the left wing, I'm not sure either. Trump is a representative of the people, so even if people hate his person, he's just doing the will of the people who voted him in. It's a deep-rooted divide of the nation, by far not just a matter of Trump being an idiot. There's an army of idiots behind him, so to speak.

[Dave]

Very gentle reminder to make sure the vaguely civil discussion here continues in that manner...

[supermop]

Very gentle reminder to make sure the vaguely civil discussion here continues in that manner...

Thanks Dave for your level headedness.

Personally I am finding it a bit disheartening to see this kind of argument here - I don't know if it is just bike shedding to avoid the scarier thoughts or what.

I do want to make a point that doesn't seem to be getting through, to my frustration, to our friends in Europe and beyond, who make up the majority of participants here. Some of my compatriots have chimed in so far with there personal postmortem analyses one way or the other, but it seems like those outside of the US are having a separate conversation. I believe that the whole world has a stake in this, for better or for worse, but in the immediate short term, there is a real, distinct impact to us in the US. While I am still not settled on my exact course of action forward from now, I would like to express my concerns in as much of an objective way as I can manage. I cannot force anyone here to take my fears seriously, but I can maybe explain why rebukes of 'you're overreacting', 'get over it', or equivocation are frustrating and unhelpful.

At the most basic policy level, many of us in America have genuine concerns that even if a Trump administration behaves similar to a generic contemporary Republican Platform, we still face several serious risks. We believe that the appointment of climate science deniers to the EPA and other agencies will be a nail in the coffin for global cooperation to address climate change. Real progress that has been made in areas like electric vehicles, energy efficiency, and protection of natural habits could likely be rolled back. We fear that spending cuts to fund a tax cut for the wealthiest citizens will jeopardize what beneficial programs we have, and put poorer Americans at greater risk of slipping through the cracks. We know that a repeal of the Affordable Care Act will leave 21 Million Americans without health insurance, straining our already threadbare healthcare system. None of these concerns above are Trump specific policies - they are the standard Republican Party platform and agenda for the past 6 years, and republican leaders in congress would try to enact them with any conservative Republican president. You don't have to hold agree that these are issues for yourself, but hopefully you can understand my concern.

As for why we are unhappy with Trump specifically, It is not just a matter of him being rude, or advocating personal policies that sound unworkable and extreme such as a wall, or starting a trade war with China. We are worried because our country now feels alien and hostile in a way that it didn't when the left has lost other elections. When Nixon, Reagan, and both Bushes won, there was disappointment, and even protest, but still an ability to carry on and participate in society according to an idea of America widely shared between left and right. While Trump himself is probably pragmatic and able to keep whatever prejudices he may hold from being executed as policy, the way in which he ran his campaign, and types of language he used to motivate certain groups, has legitimized and given voice to a small part of the country that holds hateful views. We are not naive - we always have known bigots exist in this country - what is scary this time is that neither the republicans nor the mainstream majority of their voters made it clear that hateful speech and actions are not to be celebrated. To minority groups in this country, the message received when told to 'get over it' or 'move on', is that 'making a statement' of frustration to Washington is more important than their safety. I am afraid that this concept might be too difficult to convey to those who do not have first or second hand experience of modern persecution, so all I can really do is share reports of the massive uptick in threatening messages and assaults this week:

[+] Spoiler

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... dents.html
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... s_u_s.html
https://twitter.com/ShaunKing
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/ed ... video.html

Again I can't demand that believe things are that bad if you aren't seeing it personally, but surely you can understand why we are afraid, seeing reports of incidents that were once rare come flooding in. I don't think it is fair to say we are overreacting when we are being explicitly threatened. We aren't saying Trump is doing this himself, but that it seems like this will be a daily fact of life in Trump's America. I would never expect to receive much compassion on the internet at large, but I do hope that the community we have here, centered as it is on a cooperative endeavor, would grant us a sympathetic ear.

As for the 'Trump-like' policies of a Trump administration, of course there is potential for real economic, social, and even geopolitical harm to be done. However, there is also a fear, that whether through pragmatism or failure, some or all of Trump's key promises - those that he used to build his core of enthusiastic supporters - will not happen. If the wall gets tied up in planning for 20 years, no one is really going to care. But what happens when some undocumented aliens remain here, when a ban on Muslim immigrants proves unworkable, when coal still remains economically uncompetitive, or when scrapping trade deals doesn't magically bring high-wage unskilled manufacturing jobs back my the millions? Maybe nothing happens, but I am afraid that the anger that got Trump elected will still be there. Ideally it would be directed at Trump and the republicans, but there is a real risk that it might lash out at progressives, minorities, or other nations.

* * *

How do I feel this week? So far something different each day, but mostly a desire to work to improve things, to lay the groundwork for a strong inclusive society that can affect change in local and national governments at the next election cycle. I am not going to get into any of the liberal infighting here - I have certain strong feeling shaping up on that, but it is not productive for any of us to fight over at this time, as Dave requested, let's keep it civil.

To those talking about fear and hate - I don't think the actual fear we feel is the problem here. Some people are afraid as a genuine survival mechanism right now. I myself do not have any fear for my person. As a straight, white male in my 30s of Northern European background with a university education, I can probably survive the worst of a Trumpist America if I just keep my mouth shut. Barring that, I could probably move to another country more easily than most Americans who are at greater risk. However, I have loved ones, family, and friends who do not share all the privileges I do. They are gay, bi or queer, Asian, Black, or Latinx, they are female or trans, they are Jewish, Muslim or Hindu. They might not have the means to relocate anywhere else, so they will have to do their best to make it here, come what may. If you don't agree with our politics or macroeconomic theories, please at least show some compassion for people who are at least facing a spate of hostile rhetoric they cannot escape. So far we are focusing on what we can to keep out spirits up and remind ourselves we are not alone. Here in New York we've had peaceful protests everyday since Wednesday to share camaraderie and remind ourselves that we may have lost the election, but we won the popular vote (by a bigger margin than Kennedy). There are more of us - and if we put in the work, we will win and make progress in the near future.

I've made an effort to keep this as levelheaded and dispassionate as I can, with no intent to be hostile to anyone. If you are white Trump voter, I am not calling you a racist, I am just trying to explain anxiety on the other side. Thanks so much for reading this with an open mind!


Best,

[Drury]

Speaking of electric vehicles - Trump made it a point in his campaign that he was not being financed by third parties (which I believe there exists counter-evidence to) and that he wouldn't succumb to lobbyists.

First lobbyists that showed up were automakers asking not to be forced to make electric vehicles. We'll see if he holds his ground here.

It seems he's already backpedaling on other promises, though. Obama seems to have twisted his arm on repealing ACA when they met the other day. Apparently, he's not as anti-immigrant as it seems either, what with him softening up a bit during the campaign for a minute before going full throttle again. And now he refuses to answer whether he'll actually ban all muslims from entering the country. It's possible he was just trying to stay consistent with his full-on republican appeasement during the campaign, but doesn't actually feel like going through with it.

I mean, some of the reforms he's planning are genuinely good and needed, provided he doesn't screw up, he's backpedalling on his worst promises left and right, and the rest is plain impossible (like no, you're not going to get those coal mines running again anytime soon). This might not be a complete, utter trainwreck after all.

As for the "terrible" Trump supporters - I called them idiots quite a lot of times in my other post and Dave got all scared, but really I don't think they're going to be much of a problem in the long run. The way I see it, they're made up for two vastly different groups of people - the mostly conservative republican voter base, and the liberals who got fed up with the media, the lies and propaganda who are thrown in the same bag and called "rapists" and "misogynists" which only got them more riled up. I think it's stupid to vote for an objectively worse option just because people don't understand your struggle, but they did and got their way. As I said before, Trump is going to hurt them the most, hence voting him was idiotic, but in a human way, from their perspective, somewhat understandable.

So my point is - do all Trump supporters hate minorities, are rapists and misogynists? No. A lot of them are just disgruntled and really want to hurt the establishment, even if they burn themselves in the process. Are they going to be a problem in the future? If things don't get better and you let them vote, yes, they'll vote the worst possible option again. But it's not like most of them will go around destroying freedums. They're all rednecks and childless men who masturbate to anime. They'll just go on doing their thing in seclusion. Worst experience I've had with them was being called a cuck. Mainstream media also tried to demonize rare pepes in an attempt to discredit them, which was hilarious.

Anyway, let's not forget almost 50% of the nation did the smart/lazy thing and didn't vote. No matter how terrible Trump voters you think might be, they can't make up more than 25% of the eligible voter base.

[Redirect Left]

It seems he's already backpedaling on other promises, though. Obama seems to have twisted his arm on repealing ACA when they met the other day. Apparently, he's not as anti-immigrant as it seems either, what with him softening up a bit during the campaign for a minute before going full throttle again. And now he refuses to answer whether he'll actually ban all muslims from entering the country. It's possible he was just trying to stay consistent with his full-on republican appeasement during the campaign, but doesn't actually feel like going through with it.

I suspect a lot of what Trump said was purely to get himself in the news and bring himself to the front of peoples minds, rather than he actually believed it.

[Translink]

As for rioting - the only violence I've heard of since the election has been Trump supporters painting hateful messages on buildings in Black and Jewish neighborhoods, two incidents of people ripping hijab off of Muslim women, and several incidents of people yelling at middle eastern and Asian people to "go home". Sure that is all "lefties rioting" right?

Last night about 10,000 people met in Union Square near my office, and marched up Broadway in protest. This kind of peaceful demonstration is clearly enshrined in the First Amendment of our constitution, and is long celebrated across the left, and even parts of the right in this country.

Oh what was that sprayed onto a centopath days before Remembrance day? "Die Whites Die"

The same people who were picketing "Love Trumps Hate" before the election are now burning flags, vandalising property and wasting police time.

I have a genuine question for you, what do you think your protest will achieve? Absolutely nothing is the answer. Trump is going to be the president, unless he gets assassinated that is but then the sort of people who don't want Trump as president would not want Pence as president even more so he does have a good anti-assassination insurance policy.

[Pilot]

Oh what was that sprayed onto a centopath days before Remembrance day? "Die Whites Die"

Because God forbid that minority groups feel like they are going to be oppressed, and use a shock tactic to voice their displeasure

[Translink]

Because God forbid that minority groups feel like they are going to be oppressed, and use a shock tactic to voice their displeasure

So does that mean I could do similar things if Hillary won?

[Pilot]

Because God forbid that minority groups feel like they are going to be oppressed, and use a shock tactic to voice their displeasure

So does that mean I could do similar things if Hillary won?

They've been receiving constant abuse by Trump through out his campaign. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, however, it's not exactly unexpected either! It's basically the exact same thing Trump did through his campaign.

[supermop]

The same people who were picketing "Love Trumps Hate" before the election are now burning flags, vandalising property and wasting police time.

The same people? What evidence do you have for that? Over 60 Million people - nearly equal the population of the UK - voted for Hillary. That coalition is vast and diverse. Believe me, if 60 million people were out there destroying property, there wouldn't be anything left by now. On the left the are widely different responses, some people are normalizing and accepting Trump, some are campaigning for love and tolerance, some want to dissolve the Democratic Party, and a small faction wants to react with anger. Recall that even in the 90s, there were those on the far left who violently protested even the Clinton Administration, and even riots at the Seattle WTO meeting in 99. I don't know where you are getting your news over in N.I., but the amount of 'anger' and hate here now is overwhelmingly directed from the far right towards progressives and people of color.

If you want to talk about hateful protestors wasting police time, may I remind you of the far-right Tea Party, who refused to accept the presidency of Barack Obama for nearly his entire term, and often carried firearms visibly while doing so. Additionally the Bundy family has been behind two separate armed militia standoffs, on of which caused significant damage to a wildlife sanctuary, wasting massive police and federal resources, yet receiving no criminal penalty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupatio ... ife_Refuge

I have a genuine question for you, what do you think your protest will achieve? Absolutely nothing is the answer. Trump is going to be the president, unless he gets assassinated that is but then the sort of people who don't want Trump as president would not want Pence as president even more so he does have a good anti-assassination insurance policy.

If you have a 'genuine question', maybe don't presuppose your own answer in the following sentence. I already stated what we aim for by demonstration in my previous post, please read it through if you want the real perspective of someone actually living through this in the United States. We aim to remind ourselves that we are a majority of voters, that we can make progress, and to remind anyone who feels despair that 'you are not alone'. We want to show LGBQT people, religious minorities, and people of color that we will stand by them as allies if their persecution is realized. Protesting and assembly is a guaranteed right under the constitution, we don't need to justify it to anyone, but I think those goals of compassion are more than sufficient. None of us expect Trump to step aside because of a few protests, though we can let him know that there is a huge chunk of votes out there for a more progressive candidate to pick up in the future.

I am curious as to why you are so invested in this, to be honest. You are not a resident of the US, so what upside do you expect to see from a Trump presidency? And why does it matter to you if Trump has a popular opposition movement? I am deeply invested in retaining a vibrant, multicultural and progressive US, because I live and work here. What harm does my desire to protect my less fortunate countrymen cause you? I don't want to see Trump assassinated at all. I don't really want to see the Electoral College try to override his votes, even though this is arguably one of it's functions, as that would probably provoke violence from Trump supporters. I don't want Trump to step aside and let Mike Pence be the day-to-day executive. What I do want is for the electorate to see that this type of regressive government is unsustainable, and work towards electing good legislators at the state and local level in the 2018 elections. I do want an open and tolerant society, so my wife and her family can feel just as safe here as I do, and so any children we may have in the future can live in a country that values them regardless of their race or sexuality. What s so offensive about that?

So does that mean I could do similar things if Hillary won?

You are certainly welcome to protest Hillary or other democrats in Northern Ireland if you want, although I still do not understand why you'd want to. By all means please hold a pro-Trump rally there if you feel it necessary. As or the significance of any act of vandalism you've mentioned, there is a huge difference in one or two offensive but unsubstantiated reports of threats against a group that holds power, and the massive outpouring of verified threats by people in power against those who are at risk. The Southern Poverty Law Center, an non-profit group of lawyers and advocates that has been working to track hate crimes since the civil rights era, has been collecting and investigating reports in case you don't want to read the Shaun King documentation I linked in my last post: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/201 ... ection-day

I am not asking anyone to change their own politics here, just asking for you to read my explanation so you can understand our thinking even if you do not agree with it.

Thank you,

[Chris]

Oh what was that sprayed onto a centopath days before Remembrance day? "Die Whites Die"

Do you have a source for this? I've googled and can't find an instance of this happening..?

Also I fail to see the relevance to the discussion. It just appears to be racial sh*tstirring.

But I'm sure you're a lovely person and would never do such a thing

Also obviously the point of the protests is to make it clear that a majority of the electorate opposed him at the poll.

[Redirect Left]

Donald Trump has begun to start speaking of his plan of action going forward.
Up to 3 million migrants will be targeted. He also spoke of his great wall plan bordering Mexico, which seems to have been downsized since his election - suggesting that it would be more of a fence in some areas.
Three million is a huge number, as the BBC article states, to get this number he would have to cast a huge net, which would probably have to include legal aliens to the country with very minor infractions with the law, not just illegal migrants and known gang members, drug dealers and violent criminals.
BBC News

Meanwhile, protests against Trump continue across America.
ABC News

[Drury]

3 million, crazy to think that's more than half my country. I really wonder what kind of force he intends to deploy to chase them down and deport them.

I'm guessing inevitably he'll have to lie about the effectiveness of his measures. In reality, the only deported illegal immigrants will be the poor innocent people who barely had a choice (mostly from the clusterduck that is Venezuela) and the "bad hombres" will slip right by his fingers - criminals don't tend to stand around waiting to be caught and kicked out. It's gonna be such a mess.

EDIT: In other news, the anti-trump movement is going wild

https://twitter.com/gossipgriII/status/ ... 1717673985

[luxtram]

3 million, crazy to think that's more than half my country. I really wonder what kind of force he intends to deploy to chase them down and deport them.

I'm guessing inevitably he'll have to lie about the effectiveness of his measures. In reality, the only deported illegal immigrants will be the poor innocent people who barely had a choice (mostly from the clusterduck that is Venezuela) and the "bad hombres" will slip right by his fingers - criminals don't tend to stand around waiting to be caught and kicked out. It's gonna be such a mess.

EDIT: In other news, the anti-trump movement is going wild

https://twitter.com/gossipgriII/status/ ... 1717673985

In 60 minutes he stated that he would deport people who are gang members and drug dealers etc. Number of 2-3 millions is a bit surprising for me, but assuming that it involves also current inmates and will advance at normal pace, it does not seem unimaginable (I am still not comfortable about the numbers).

What I think that is crucial here, is to at the same time relax the law against consumption and trade of the recreational substances to allow the local legal businesses to take over instead of local criminal establishment. I am doubtful that this would happen, but it would be something that the opposition could focus on instead of mindless rioting.